When the windmill stops.

[Mike Gearon]

10 hours ago, facthunter said:

It all shows why teaching low level flying is essential for all pilots. The ILLUSIONS you get near the ground have to be dealt with. Nev

And…… here’s a world of experience on show. 
 

It was probably only a year ago I started over French Island unpopulated areas with low level turns. Legal ones!.  Quite different and brings a whole new level of attention to a 30 degree bank. I’d not thought about ILLUSIONS over ground due to wind. Very thankful for this info! and yes, yet again it turns heated (OME)  and you want to look away. 
 

Thanks OME for kindling the discussion fire. I was surprised to see you back. I also admit to now understanding a bit more why you’re controversial. Fractured facts or theories aren’t helpful. (Sorry to say this 😞 but I agree with safety and facts first and thought experiments should be relegated to well… maybe RC as you mentioned. These can be repaired easier than us)

 

Note…. We wish pilots would stay clear of the houses on French Island. There’s absolutely no need to be doing turns around a point over farm houses. It can freak the residents out. They can think they are being targeted with nefarious intent.

[facthunter]

When a piston plane does a low  level powered turn the doppler effect makes it sound like a fighter starting a strafing run to people on the ground.  Now just take my word for it rather than make a dangerous pest of your self.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Just about every post here has been correct. But nobody much has given the initial height!. In a glider, from 12,000 ft you have more than half an hour before thinking of landing. But in a Jabiru at 2000 ft you need to head for that into-wind landing spot right away.

 

[facthunter]

Yes . You have about 4 minutes to touchdown and less if you do turns. Worse if you have a draggy plane. Also you often don't know your height above the actual terrain accurately so don't get too far downwind and find you can't make your chosen field. You cannot stretch the glide. Nev

[Jim Bair]

On 22/06/2022 at 2:25 AM, old man emu said:

....... you find that the winds will be anything other than headwinds not more than about 10 degrees either side of your desired track....

 

Do you continue on track, looking for a place to land, or do you swing around the the reciprocal direction of the forecast wind, and use it to maintain airspeed to maintain flying for longer while you search for a place to put down? 

Not sure what the headwinds being 10 deg off track has to do with this in general unless your destination is within gliding range and I didn't understand the wording anyway, but I'll attempt to answer.   Also, I assume you mean by keeping it flying longer to mean longer distance?  Because the wind direction has zero to do with time aloft.

 

1.  Aviate.  Keep the aircraft under control and at the airspeed you want while looking for a place to land and troubleshooting the problem.  The solution may be as simple as switching a fuel valve to the full tank instead of the empty one.  If that's the case, you continue your trip.

 

2.  Navigate.  If troubleshooting didn't work, and you've spotted a place to land, navigate your way to a position that you can do that successfully.  To me successfully means, in order

    a.  Don't injure anyone on the ground.  

    b.  Avoid injury to yourself and your passengers.

    c.  Avoid damage to the plane.  If we can manage this, the top two are generally taken care of.  How do we do this?  Try to land on the smoothest, softest (meaning avoiding trees and buildings unless we need to rip the wings off to stop the plane and save ourselves), least expensive thing possible, at the lowest possible speed.  That means into the wind.  That is vital.  Landing downwind means way more energy to dissipate and way reduced chances of survival and way increased chances of aircraft damage.

 

Navigating to a spot from which to conduct a successful approach is trickier than people generally realize.  I am an examiner and I see people screw it up all the time on checkrides.  They very often simply continue straight ahead oblivious as to wind direction and don't set up a proper pattern like they would fly at an airfield, then miss their intended landing area completely.  Navigate to a spot abeam your intended point of landing on downwind at your normal pattern altitude and from there, it's a picture you've seen a thousand times.  Just pretend you're on downwind and you're doing a power off landing, which you can most likely do over and over successfully.  Make your life easy.  What's the easiest way to get to a downwind position?  Just fly directly over the field you've selected pointed into the wind at approx double your pattern altitude and then turn downwind.  In the military that position is called high key and it works really well.  I can do that pattern 100x straight successfully into a pretty small spot.  Trying to do a straight in to the same spot, I probably couldn't do 100x straight.

 

3.  Communicate.  Sure, if you have time and it will help.  Remember, it's last on the list.  I have seen students have an engine failure (yes, it happens on 100% of checkrides, so it shouldn't be surprising) and establish best glide, have zero awareness we just flew over a really sweet field and I gave them an engine failure there so they'd have a place to go (yes, I'm such a nice guy) and then they point at the radio and say, "I'd declare an emergency on 121.5" so, I make them switch frequencies and tell me their simulated radio call, and then I answer them asking if I can be of any assistance.  Then they don't know what to say.  They start trying to give their position, which is usually so vague as to be useless anyway.  Then they want to squawk 7700.  Fine, I tell them to squawk 1234 stby, to make them twiddle the numbers, and by that time they have used up most of their altitude, they haven't chosen a landing spot, we have flown away from the only good one around, they aren't set up for a good landing anywhere, and we end up on an approach to a landing on whatever is in front of us, usually downwind, and by then they are so rattled because they're high and can't get down (because we're landing downwind) that they forget to put flaps down.  Sigh....  

 

 

 

[Bernie]

I was told not to turn towards the airfield we just went over and find another simulated landing area.

Bernie.

[RFguy]

it depends.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

You come down fast. Once, I tried a simulated engine out to a new airfield. I got there so high that I went to a standard circuit, only to find that on turning to base from downwind, I was out of range.

So now I reckon that the best strategy is to get to the base leg and to "S" turn as you beat up and down until the height is right to turn onto finals. Always turning into wind of course.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Maybe we should all do more engine-out circuits like Jim Bair recommends. I don't think they are allowed where I fly from, but they should be mandatory.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Bruce Tuncks

[RFguy]

wants to be benign condix I think, since if you get a X-wind landing messed up and there is no go around for you, it might be messy.....

[RFguy]

Bruce, when you couldnt make it in from Downwind-Base in yoru J230, sure you didnt have a headwind ? or make it a deep downwind circuit? I can make it back in my230, but I have to turn directly for the threshold. and also, usually late downwind in the J230 I bring out first stage of flap do my base turn is 70-75kts. in that case I bring the flaps back in and head for the threashold.  But of course if I have a headwind, even 10 knots, I am hosed . som in those cases downwind leg is shorter .

[Bruce Tuncks]

There was a slight wind from the NW if I remember correctly.

The glide was into Stonefield from about south-east of  Eudunda, starting about 6000 ft.  I got there ok and wanted to set up to land on the long E/W strip, from the east... about 28. But on turning onto base leg, I was too low!

The whole thing can be explained by stupidity.  There was so little wind, that I could have landed downwind safely. Also, I could have done a close-in circuit and always had the option to get to the strip. There was nobody else around.

[danny_galaga]

On 27/06/2022 at 1:33 AM, Mike Gearon said:

Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.

Aviate.

1. Best glide.

2. Attempt to rectify the problem. Fuel. Electrics. (I figure this is part of aviate to keep the aviate part in the air if possible)
3. Wind direction.

Navigate.

1. Awareness of the country you’ve flown over with regard to emergency landing.

2. Country ahead with regard to emergency landing.

3. Wind direction and how it would influence a decision in any direction. Say over mountains with flat ground in glide range ahead and behind you. Check airspeed to ground speed and commit to a direction. So many variables. I’d not be overthinking it.

 

Communicate.

 

1. If possible communicate with Center. 
 

I guess if you had a 50 or 60kn head wind you could sit there in the one spot to really get a handle on the whole aviate, navigate and communicate. However, it’s stuff I don’t think you want in your head. You’re sticking to your training. It keeps you calm. You’re in a process of elimination of possible courses of action. Narrowing focus to the ones you will commit to. 

I like this post, but wouldn't you consider wind direction in the navigate category?

[facthunter]

Don't lose control is #1. Nev

[Flying Binghi]

Feck ‘communicate’.

 

Aviate.  Attitude - Airspeed - Attitude - Airspeed - Attitude - Airspeed….. Once yer happy and relaxed with that, then briefly navigate (looking for where to land) whilst focusing on Aviate. You’ve regularly noted the general ground wind direction whilst in cruise and after engine stop automatically turned into wind whilst aviating so no more need to think about the wind direction.

 

You’ve got a phone and an ELB on your person - Blather all you want on the ground.

 

 

 

 

.

[facthunter]

Talking might help but only when you have time. No one can fly it for you  nev

[Aero_Medic]

This has been a good read but I’ve got to ask about the ‘dreaded 180 turn back’ which has not been talked about much. So what if the engine quits below 500ft and you know what’s ahead is just bush&trees as far as the eye can see? Do you accept a hard/high injury landing or risk pulling the aircraft around to attempt the runway behind?
 

Now my flying has been in a J170 and I have been told it is possible to fling the J170 around given the benign stall characteristics of the aircraft and make a successful glide approach. But is it advised? Is it possible? 

 

without getting into the nittygritty of aerodynamics, physics etc can I ask who has performed this 180 manoeuvre? and would you do it again faced with scenario above? 

let’s keep on learning 

 

[Blueadventures]

My training is below 500 feet land ahead within say 30 degrees. A very good mate of mine and other forum members tried the 180 below 500 feet and sadly he is no longer with us.  Big loss.  I am not an instructor.  Go through it with an instructor or better still an instructor who flies the strip you're referring to.  Plenty of accident investigations to confirm the 180 gives bad results.  Just my opinion.  At my strip and others I have the plan in my head where to head in an engine out event.

 

There are other posts and information about when taking off in heavily treed areas that when above 500feet maintain a circling climb over strip to a higher level above ground level before departing on route.

[danny_galaga]

1 hour ago, Aero_Medic said:

This has been a good read but I’ve got to ask about the ‘dreaded 180 turn back’ which has not been talked about much. So what if the engine quits below 500ft and you know what’s ahead is just bush&trees as far as the eye can see? Do you accept a hard/high injury landing or risk pulling the aircraft around to attempt the runway behind?
 

Now my flying has been in a J170 and I have been told it is possible to fling the J170 around given the benign stall characteristics of the aircraft and make a successful glide approach. But is it advised? Is it possible? 

 

without getting into the nittygritty of aerodynamics, physics etc can I ask who has performed this 180 manoeuvre? and would you do it again faced with scenario above? 

let’s keep on learning 

 

Apparently survival rate landing into trees is 80-90%. Id rather hug a tree than spin at 500ft

Edited September 19, 2022 by danny_galaga

[Aero_Medic]

Yes the climbing turn above 300ft is a safer option. Being a new pilot I have yet to push the boundaries of the J170 and explore its performance and flight characteristics when at the edge of its flight envelope, something I think I will request with a flight instructor in due course.

[Mike Gearon]

Check AOPA podcasts. “there I was” 

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/there-i-was-an-aviation-podcast/id1240482999

 

A Numbrr of episodes involve landing in trees. The thing with “There I was” is the survival rate is 100% or the pilot couldn’t go on the show. I try to listen to each episode and take away what they’ve learned and retain it.

 

Did a straight line trip recently over country I couldn’t glide out of danger from 9,500ft . I remember looking down at Mt Bulla and thinking that snow is the only landing spot I’ve seen. It was quite a relief to get back to safer country and without a BRS I’m unfortunately going to have to admit to being a bit wary of a repeat. Next trip will be my more usual more westerly route with plenty of landing spots in glide range.

 

I did have a “take home” from one of the episodes which was to look out for younger growth. Younger plantation trees being a better option. Certainly save one pilots life on that show and I did spot some of these type of plantations on the trip.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon 500 ft is too conservative, But you can find out for yourself at a safe height.

An important factor is how long it takes you to begin the turn-back.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Mike, the only person who I know who has landed in scrub said that when the wings were ripped off, the plane stopped.

I take this to mean. that if you keep flying enough to aim the fuse between trees, this will be mighty helpful.

[Mike Gearon]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Mike, the only person who I know who has landed in scrub said that when the wings were ripped off, the plane stopped.

I take this to mean. that if you keep flying enough to aim the fuse between trees, this will be mighty helpful.

Yes, one of the AOPA episodes mentions exactly this and the guy flew it all the way in. I heard just now on the news about the Australian crash. Condolences to the pilots family.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Mike Gearon

[Aero_Medic]

Started listening to the AOPA podcasts already, thanks for sharing the link.