Things you see on OzRunways.

[Old Koreelah]

Can’t find a thread that this topic fits in, so new thread:

 

Late- night scan of OR to see what’s in the air. Not much activity in this part of the world, so zoomed out to see who’s using OR in other parts of the world.

This bloke’s cruising much higher than commercial aircraft tend to; do the military use OzRunways?

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I have seen videos of military aircraft with things like Garmin GPSs on top of the panel. So it wouldn't surprise me that some military pilots might also have OR going in the cockpit.

[Student Pilot]

I use OZR in other countries, I use the basic Nav function. Apart from radio frequencies it has everything I need. 

[spenaroo]

funnily enough I just had a chat about this over the weekend with a mate, who used to work for a defense contractor

was out golfing with him and checked flightradar24 to see what the helicopter we could hear was.
showed him and he was laughing as he told me they had it running on a big screen main screen in the operations rooms.
he reckons it takes care of everything with a transponder, so they use it to eliminate them as knowns on other sensors.

Edited June 29, 2022 by spenaroo

[Bruce Tuncks]

I have been playing with a garmin aera 660 which came with my new bigger Jabiru. It looks like it does the same job as my ozrunways which works on a tablet computer. Can it do more?

[jackc]

Bruce, I am at an experimental stage with a new 660, my Super Bin Chicken came with a GPS296 which works but where it’s mounted, I don’t want to use it.  I did a 2 hour flight with the 296 the other day and did not look at it once, so maybe it has to go and I put the 660 on the left side of cockpit where I can simply glance at it easily?  Some more hours with the current setup and see how I go with it. I treat flying a plane like driving a car……always looking outside where possible. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The garmin aero is central but tilted towards the left so it is easy for the pilot to see. But so far, I have trouble entering flight plans etc, more than with ozrunways.  So it might be that I will finish up using both.

[old man emu]

That's what I don't like about the idea of using a screen instead of a paper map. Screens have become so ubiquitous in so many applications that people live "heads down", which is OK if you are a Bingo addict, but not when you are on the move. 

 

Screen devices have changed the way Mankind has navigated since it took its first steps out of the cave. Screens say, "You are here". A paper map says, "You've got to get to this landmark. Look for it". So the map-reader is always looking outside for the landmark. 

 

The use of screens for navigation causing pilots to rely on them instead of their own observations reminds me of the wording we Highway Patrol Police used when giving evidence in a radar detected speed matter:

"I observed the vehicle for a period of not less than three seconds and based on my experience I estimated that the vehicle was exceeding the speed limit applicable to that length of public street. I released the radar and saw the numerals ### appear in the Target window." In other words, "See. Compare. Confirm." 

 

In my opinion, that's the way to navigate. Of course, that method relies on the fact that a flight plan has been prepared beforehand, and consulted during the flight.

[Bruce Tuncks]

You are  right OME, but it is sooo much easier to just keep the blue plane on the pink line that laziness will have us do just that. Yes, I know that if things fail, then you will be sorry you were lazy.

[Thruster88]

10 hours ago, old man emu said:

That's what I don't like about the idea of using a screen instead of a paper map. Screens have become so ubiquitous in so many applications that people live "heads down", which is OK if you are a Bingo addict, but not when you are on the move. 

 

Screen devices have changed the way Mankind has navigated since it took its first steps out of the cave. Screens say, "You are here". A paper map says, "You've got to get to this landmark. Look for it". So the map-reader is always looking outside for the landmark. 

 

The use of screens for navigation causing pilots to rely on them instead of their own observations reminds me of the wording we Highway Patrol Police used when giving evidence in a radar detected speed matter:

"I observed the vehicle for a period of not less than three seconds and based on my experience I estimated that the vehicle was exceeding the speed limit applicable to that length of public street. I released the radar and saw the numerals ### appear in the Target window." In other words, "See. Compare. Confirm." 

 

In my opinion, that's the way to navigate. Of course, that method relies on the fact that a flight plan has been prepared beforehand, and consulted during the flight.

I agree that screens in cars are should never have been allowed for adjusting things like A/C. Fines for holding or touching mobile phones while driving need to be higher. Two hands on the wheel and two eyes on the road makes crashing almost impossible. It is only a few seconds from all good to impact.  

 

Aircraft are completely different. Even if we look at our screen for 30 seconds while cruising we don't crash.  Have done a lot of low level navigation with maps in the past and have no desire for more. A few years ago flying into William Creek an hour before sunset with limited forward vision due sun and not many landmarks and only 60 mins of fuel remaining I said to my co pilot,  glad we are not doing this with a map. With the screen we could give our 10 mile inbound call with confidence and could even see some of the traffic that we were hearing on the ctaf. I reckon we had eyes outside more than if we had been using a map due to unfamiliarity with the area. Screens are the best thing to happen in aviation ever, each to their own. 

[Garfly]

5 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

You are  right OME, but it is sooo much easier to just keep the blue plane on the pink line that laziness will have us do just that. Yes, I know that if things fail, then you will be sorry you were lazy.

You'd also be sorry if you returned to old-school virtue but then mistook town A on the WAC for town B on the earth (so similar!!) and found y'self on some track winding back to an old fashioned shack.  Or, if say, those headphones up on the dash caused that compass 'thing' to fail (throwing it out, say, another 60 degrees ... on top of its usual 30) and you end up camping on desert dunes when you'd come all prepared for the beach.  Oh, aye, them were the days.  

 

I think I do repeat myself (LOL) but I'm sure there were Old Man Seadogs, in days of yore, who reckoned those new fangled magnetic loadstones were a curse; what, with all their stupid "You're sailing in this direction" stuff.  Heaven's above, sure it be a far more honest thing for a mariner to watch the waves and stars (so long as they be out tonight, mind) and to heed their ancient wisdom "You've got this new world to find. Look for it."

 

Anyway, regarding those modern screen things and their incessant "You are here" stuff: heck! that ain't the half of it, they're total chatterboxes nowadays: it's all  "Your TRK is this, your BRG is that, your ETA is this, your ETE is something else, your GS is XXY kts, the wind aloft is ZXY/X0, the CTA step above you is at AOZY, your current FIA freq. is XX0.XY and, by the way, here's the next one you can dial in right now.  The current DA is X000', Last Light will be at YY30 hours and, in case you're interested your present Height Above Ground is  only XX'. If you're worried, your nearest suitable airfield is YY.0nm distant on the XYZ radial with an elevation of X,YZX'. Fuel required for that diversion will be ZZ litres. Your GPS altitude is currently X,500' and your barometric is 200' lower. All terrain that might be a threat is now coloured red.  This is your Grid LSALT just to be safe. The current Area QNH is XXXX hectopascals. You will notice that all active PRDs, too, on your route are shaded red. They will change in real time so keep an eye out in case you decide to take that short cut if that Romeo is deactivated.  Those CBs you were worried about are, as you can see, now moving away from your route.  Oh, and by the way, since you've finally bought a SkyEcho2 you will notice that, at present, you have no conflict with that RPT heading for our same DEST.  So just relax a little. And now, well whaddaya know? ... your ETE has now reduced to just X minutes. So nice flying with you, Capt."

 

Sheesh!  No wonder there's so much nostalgia for those 'Oh, so peaceful' days of paper, clock and compass.

 

But notwithstanding all of that - and despite the many rumours of heads-down screen-fanatics - I do declare I've never been more heads-up on trips since I stopped struggling with paper charts which never did learn to tell me simply "You Are Here".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Garfly

[aro]

As long as you have enough awareness to recognize when it's telling you lies... mine does surprisingly often. The GPS in an ipad isn't the same as an aviation GPS - and in some circumstances an ipad will even confidently tell you a position without a GPS installed.

 

Also you need to be able to use your own judgement on things like fuel calculations. On one flight from A to B and back to A Avplan optimistically predicted a tailwind in both directions, so actual fuel usage was significantly higher than predicted. It's hard to duplicate because it requires specific weather patterns, so I never figured out if Ozrunways did the same thing.

 

It's easy to get lazy, but you need to verify what it is telling you.

 

 

[Garfly]

41 minutes ago, aro said:

It's easy to get lazy, but you need to verify what it is telling you.

Very true, ditto the whiz-wheel and official forecasts. 

Having used iPads for yonks, though, I've not, myself, found any internal GPS to be out by more than a few metres, given a fair crack at the sky.  But yeah, in aviation, it has to be a trust-but-verify relationship with tech stuff (like with engines, airframes and the old whiskey compass).

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Garfly

[Jabiru7252]

I've done a lot of work with RAAF pilots. One day I was on base after a hard days work chasing F18s around the sky. I noticed the F18 pilot was using Oz Runways to plan his flight back to Williamtown RAAF base. Interesting the jet has squillions of dollars of 'stuff' on board but he preferred Oz Runways. Apparently he uses it when flying Jabirus during his off work time.

[Jabiru7252]

28 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Very true, ditto the whiz-wheel and official forecasts. 

Having used iPads for yonks, though, I've not, myself, found any internal GPS to be out by more than a few metres, given a fair crack at the sky.  But yeah, in aviation, it has to be a trust-but-verify relationship with tech stuff (like with engines, airframes and the old whiskey compass).

 

 

 

I used a Garmin Nuvi 340 GPS when flying. It could be 500m out for all I care. If you can't find the strip at 500m you should be flying models.

[old man emu]

9 hours ago, Jabiru7252 said:

I used a Garmin Nuvi 340 GPS when flying. It could be 500m out for all I care. If you can't find the strip at 500m you should be flying models.

“The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance,” John Philpot Curran, given in Dublin in 1790. As Hamlet was won't to say, " - ay, there’s the rub!". How precise do we have to be with cross- country Day VFR flight? Do we need the data overload that Garfly quotes (albeit humorously)?  In general, towns in the closer settled rural areas are about 20 nautical miles apart, simply because that was a good day's horse ride, or they are on the banks of a watercourse. So if you "mistook town A on the WAC for town B on the earth", you either have been flying in a windstorm, or haven't checked your flight plan earlier in the flight to confirm its reliability.

 

I recall an incident told by Arthur Butler about his 1931 flight from England to Australia in a Comper Swift. He was about to head off away from land and over a long watery stretch. Before he did so, he made several short out and back runs over his departure point to confirm wind drift. His only navigational aid was this type of compass, wobbling away under the instrument panel - and at night. 

 

[jackc]

Well, you can adopt the rules of IFR as it allies in this case. ‘I Follow Roads’ and that is easy 🙂 

On your trip yo do some ‘go around’ practice….you select a piece of highway where there is a large intersection, you setup to land on the road……fly the approach and then execute an ‘early’ go around, reading the road signs as you fly past at say 200ft. 

Climb out, head for next chosen town and mark your chart as a confirmed location, amend your flight plan as needed and think winner…winner chicken dinner 🙂 

[old man emu]

From some of these replies, I'm wondering how many people actually leave the vicinity of their home aerodromes.

[aro]

9 hours ago, Garfly said:

Having used iPads for yonks, though, I've not, myself, found any internal GPS to be out by more than a few metres

I have had occasional weird behaviour, on 2 different ipads:

• terrain warnings while cruising at 6000+ AGL, on multiple occasions
• the aircraft icon turns 90 degrees to the actual track
• the aircraft icon turns around and goes in the opposite direction for a short period.

Maybe there is something on my aircraft that interferes with the GPS signal. But that is the point - an aircraft GPS should tell you when the GPS signal is unreliable, not just give you their best guess at position. These are no big deal VFR, but would get your attention if you were IFR. I see people claiming they use the ipad for "situational awareness" when IFR, but I think the real question is do they have enough situation awareness to reject what the ipad is telling them if it stats feeding them crap?

 

Aviation will be interesting when/if Apple decide they are not in the aviation GPS business and they don't want to be in the aviation GPS business. Maybe they delay GPS updates above 80mph or the GPS position is above e.g. 1000' AGL. Or maybe they just remove aviation apps from the app store.

 

All it would take is someone running out of fuel and crashing after getting lost when their ipad failed (heat etc), and deciding to sue Apple.

[Garfly]

42 minutes ago, old man emu said:

 As Hamlet was won't to say, " - ay, there’s the rub!". How precise do we have to be with cross- country Day VFR flight? //

I recall an incident told by Arthur Butler about his 1931 flight from England to Australia in a Comper Swift. He was about to head off away from land and over a long watery stretch. Before he did so, he made several short out and back runs over his departure point to confirm wind drift. His only navigational aid was this type of compass, wobbling away under the instrument panel - and at night. 

Fair enough OME, and as old mate Hamlet said to his mate Horatio "The best safety lies in fear." 

 

Which is why I reckon old Arthur Butler would have been as pleased as punch to have a working iPad with him on that flight.   

Good on him for his courage, though, in doing without.  ;- ) 

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, Garfly said:

Good on him for his courage, though, in doing without.  ;- ) 

Courage be damned! He was racing back home to stop his girl marrying the wrong bloke.

[facthunter]

There's always sex in it somewhere. . Nev

[Garfly]

8 minutes ago, facthunter said:

There's always sex in it somewhere. . Nev

Yep, it's not for nothin' they built a statue to Eros smack dab in the middle of old London town.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I used my new garmin aera 660 when going to town this morning and found that the road is not quite right on the database....  we drove in through a lot of paddocks according to the garmin...  I never would have noticed this in the plane, it was only about 100m out, but this is a lot if it puts you off the road.

[Garfly]

54 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I used my new garmin aera 660 when going to town this morning and found that the road is not quite right on the database....  we drove in through a lot of paddocks according to the garmin...  I never would have noticed this in the plane, it was only about 100m out, but this is a lot if it puts you off the road.

I find, while driving off the beaten track, the 250K Topo (AU) map in OzRwys to be a very useful nav tool.

Most bush tracks (on which signposts are scarce) seem to be on it - where they belong. And, since the whole country's already downloaded onto the phone, there's no need to be within internet range.  I know there are proper downloadable 4WD map apps but, short of one of those, I find my trusty EFB real handy for terrestrial nav as well.

(Though, down in the weeds, I take its suggestions re DTG, ETA, ETE etc., with an even bigger grain of salt, and "You Are Here" is all I need to hear!    ;- ) 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Garfly