So what do people do these days when making a flight plan?

[flying dog]

I am a dinosaur and make my flight plans with paper.

 

I have an EXCEL sheet to do distances, tracks, etc.

Then I enter the wind and it calculates the important stuff.

 

But that means I need my COMPUTER and PRINTER handy all the time.

 

So when I get back to flying and doing XC flights:  how do I make a plan?

It is a 1.5 hour drive to the airport, so making a flight plan at home is silly.

 

How are they done nowadays?

[Thruster88]

I use ozrunways. It is easy to do and can be submitted if that is your thing. Weather from windy to get the big picture and NAIPS to be legal.  I use a tablet for every thing.  

Edited July 2, 2022 by Thruster88

[Garfly]

48 minutes ago, flying dog said:

So when I get back to flying and doing XC flights:  how do I make a plan?

It is a 1.5 hour drive to the airport, so making a flight plan at home is silly.

You mean silly because forecast winds are likely to change?

A plan you've made in OzRwys, et al, can be updated (for current W/V >> HDG - GS - ETE etc) in a single click (assuming your tablet has cell connection.)

 

 

https://docs.ozrunways.com/ozrunways/6_planning.html#plan-sheet

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Garfly

[sfGnome]

23 minutes ago, Garfly said:

(assuming your tablet has cell connection.)

 

…or you hotspot it off your phone. Saves paying for two SIM plans

[Mewp]

Same goes for Avplan. 

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

…or you hotspot it off your phone. Saves paying for two SIM plans

Agree, that 's what I do now that the plan ran out early. Put money saved into fuel budget.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Blueadventures

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

…or you hotspot it off your phone. Saves paying for two SIM plans

(But you still need an iPad that gas GPS, which means it needs to be capable of data downloads, IIRC) 

[APenNameAndThatA]

The easiest thing to do would be to donit the old way and the new way, and gradually change over. I use Ozrunways. It would probably be best ti use to app your friends use. Also, consider the size iPad you want. I use an iPad mini and it stays up out of the sun, over the passenger’s head, on the right wingroot. Most I see are much bigger.

 

iPads are worth using because they speed up incorporating winds and weather into your plan immediately before you take off. You input the plan in advance, and then incorporate the winds and etc just before you take off.  

[sfGnome]

48 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

(But you still need an iPad that gas GPS, which means it needs to be capable of data downloads, IIRC) 

Yes, you’re right. The iPads without the capability to take a SIM are not adequate for running ozRunways, etc., but you don’t need to actually put a SIM in them.
 

We used to use an iPad mini, and I never felt the need for anything bigger. I also uploaded all our checklists as PDFs into ozR as documents so that they were only a couple of taps away at all stages of flight. 

[flying dog]

Wow, I opened a can of worm here.

 

Yeah, ok replying as I remember them:

 

Yes, silly as in the weather forecast will/could change.

 

I am not an apple person.   I'm android.   And yes I know there are apps for that too.

 

But that (in the bigger picture) is not congruent with what I was told.

You need a PAPER flight plan.

None of those give you that.

 

I've just bought myself a newer phone (from an old S5) and it does have more "grunt" and all that.

But the screen size is not the required 10 inches - if I remember correctly.

 

I don't mind doing as suggested and doing it both ways to start with, but that doesn't answer the question about the legalities of not having a paper plan at the end of the day.

 

[Garfly]

23 minutes ago, flying dog said:

But that (in the bigger picture) is not congruent with what I was told. You need a PAPER flight plan.

None of those give you that.

I've just bought myself a newer phone (from an old S5) and it does have more "grunt" and all that. But the screen size is not the required 10 inches - if I remember correctly.

I don't mind doing as suggested and doing it both ways to start with, but that doesn't answer the question about the legalities of not having a paper plan at the end of the day.

 

It only takes a minute to scribble down a paper plan/log from the plan/sheet details made on the EFB.

(Always handy, anyway, in case the lights go out.)

 

Yes, you need at least an iPad mini size screen to legally replace paper maps.

But then you have every possible chart always up to date (could even be cheaper in the long run).

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Garfly

[flying dog]

(ARGH!  trying to cut your text to paste here is like herding cats!)

 

Yeah, you are right...  I could just scribble down on the paper what I am shown.

 

> But then you have every possible chart always up to date (could even be cheaper in the long run).

 

Which way sorry?  Having the "Ipad" or maps?

(given there are ongoing costs with the tablet of data costs)

 

[Garfly]

No, I just mean that if you're doing a fair bit of cross country, over time, the cost of keeping all your charts up to date can rival the cost of running an EFB.  (And hey, the paper maps are never going to tell you, directly and exactly, where you're at and where you're headed.  ;- )

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Garfly

[flying dog]

Yeah, fair enough.

 

I just wasn't sure what you meant.

 

I have a GPS that I use and with which I am happy.

 

But you mentioning the importance of papers, I was once flying and 20 minutes into the flight, the battery in the GPS gave out.

No big...  I used the paper plan I had and kept flying.

[KRviator]

In order of precedence:

• SkyVector's online flight planner the night before for the initial routing
• SkyVector's NavLog printed the morning of the flight to take with me to scribble on.
• OzRunways NavLog to crosscheck SV & allow the upload to the Dynon.
• My own Excel Navlog when I am told I can't use OzR or SV - such as in training or a flight review. 

[flying dog]

> My own Excel Navlog

 

That is a blank one which you then fill out with the new/up to date information - yes?

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, flying dog said:

I have a GPS that I use and with which I am happy.

Yeah, we're blessed with all the gear we need to make the fear of getting lost - and/or busting airspace - almost a thing of the past. 

And once you get used to seeing your own ship geolocate onto every conceivable chart (no cross-referencing the GPS to the VNC any more) it's pretty easy to get spoiled.  ;- )

 

In some complicated airspace situations - with narrow lanes for VFR passage - I'd say the new nav tools are pretty much essential.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Garfly

[KRviator]

3 hours ago, flying dog said:

> My own Excel Navlog

 

That is a blank one which you then fill out with the new/up to date information - yes?

Not quite - It's one with a few formulas whereby you can enter things like FPT, distance and the winds, and it calculates ETI, HDG and the rest, along with fuel burn, TO & ZFWCG position and can give you warnings about fuel reserves or CG out-of-limits.

I discussed it a little in THIS post and you can download the spreadsheet HERE

[djpacro]

6 hours ago, Garfly said:

Yes, you need at least an iPad mini size screen to legally replace paper maps.

Not true about screen size unless specified in an Ops Manual for a commercial operator. From CASA's AC 91-17 "The screen size and resolution will need to demonstrate the ability to display information in a manner comparable to the paper documents that are being replaced. For flight crew use, this would be evaluated against the aeronautical charts and other data. The recommended minimum size of the screen is 200 mm, measured diagonally across the active viewing area. ..." My iPhone easily displays stuff comparable or better than paper documents that I used when flying a Pitts. My iPad Mini is better but if I'm familiar with the route and it is good weather then the iPhone is fine (I may not even look at it). 200 mm is only a recommendation.

 

In the good old days before EFBs I wouldn't bother calculating the effect of forecast wind once I realised how far off the forecasts used to be on average. Not calculating the wind was just the same situation as encountering actual wind different than forecasts - we were taught to update the flight plan progressively as we flew it and determined the actual wind.

 

Back when I did my CPL training I was given a flight to plan then as we walked to the aircraft I was told that the task had changed so discard that plan and work out a new plan as we go.

 

As well as looking at weather and NOTAMs I do make a point of getting AvPlan to download it for me so I have evidence of it for CASA rules.

 

I rarely submit a plan or SARTIME as I'd rather use a flight note with a trusted friend who gets frequent updates of my progress.

[Garfly]

Yes, thanks for the reference to the new advisory circular (attached):

 

But this is what the AVPLAN website has to say about the screen size bit:

 

"Please note that Paragraph 7.2 of the CAAP is clear about screen size requirements for EFBs; In order to function as an approved EFB, an EFB app must be run on a device with a screen size of at least 200mm measured diagonally (i.e. an iPad mini or larger). This effectively precludes the use of phones as in-flight EFB devices, regardless of which app is being used. AvPlan-EFB is nevertheless designed to run on your phone, where it functions perfectly well (and legally) as a planning device."

 

https://www.avplan-efb.com/manuals/avplan-efb-ios-manual/8.x/en/topic/regulatory-information

 

 

advisory-circular-91-17-electronic-flight-bags.pdf

Edited July 3, 2022 by Garfly

[djpacro]

8 minutes ago, Garfly said:

But this is what the AVPLAN website has to say about the screen size bit:

 

"Please note that Paragraph 7.2 of the CAAP is clear about screen size requirements for EFBs;

I might suggest to AvPlan that they update their stuff. The text of the CAAP was clear that there was no regulatory requirement for private operators at all. However "This CAAP looks to provide guidance for the use of EFB by Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC) holders as they are bound to meet the obligations detailed in the AOC conditions set out in Appendix 9 of CAO 82.0. .... The CAAP will also provide general guidance for private operators." That CAO has now gone.

[Garfly]

6 minutes ago, djpacro said:

I might suggest to AvPlan that they update their stuff. The text of the CAAP was clear that there was no regulatory requirement for private operators at all. However "This CAAP looks to provide guidance for the use of EFB by Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC) holders as they are bound to meet the obligations detailed in the AOC conditions set out in Appendix 9 of CAO 82.0. .... The CAAP will also provide general guidance for private operators." That CAO has now gone.

Yes, the wording of the new AC 91-17 circular does seem a bit looser, although it does go on to say that:

 

 "If the intent of the device is to display charts and maps, it should be suitably sized to display the image without excessive scrolling. "

 

Whatever that means.  

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Garfly

[djpacro]

Yes, good advice. Before that we had to make multiple folds in a WAC while flying an open cockpit Pitts. Then try to grab hold of the big ERSA book.

[Yenn]

I am no longer using Avplan and never did use OzRunways.
Now I get a paper chart and work through it all the old way using an old computer, Not the electrical kind. It doesn't take long to jot down on paper. The I use a GPS12 as backup. Not that I do long flight nowadays.

 

[flying dog]

Wow, this is overwhelming....

 

Seems I may not be making any XC flights for a while.

 

(Though I haven't flown for about 3 years.)

😞