IFR flight training. IFR rules CASA for kit build/ minimum instrument requirements.

[Mike Gearon]

IFR aircraft instrument rules for flight USA FAA
 

USA FAA requirements are surprisingly loose. Obviously pilot must be rated and have 6 approaches in sim or IMC past 6 months and equipment periodically checked. 

 

Generator/ alternator, rate of turn indicator, attitude indicator, ball, clock, altimeter, radio/ nav equipment (appropriate for flight!) DG/ heading indicator.

 

IFR  aircraft instrument rules for flight Australia CASA

 

I suspect the kit build and Garmin G3X GNX375 we will use on Rans S21 won’t meet requirements in Australia. Can anyone shed light on this? I’ve been digging a bit with hard going…

 

I think there’s a 50% chance I’ll finish IFR training here. Well, it changes day to day. Almost confident and just a few years younger and better hearing more energy and I’d be 90%. Whatever happens it’s definitely a huge learning curve and worth the time and effort to safer better flying. 
 

Pics…..instructor was jumping out of his seat a few days back. The actual IMC conditions allowed him to log the approach to Lincoln NE. 😀

 

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

IFR aircraft instrument rules for flight USA FAA
 

USA FAA requirements are surprisingly loose. Obviously pilot must be rated and have 6 approaches in sim or IMC past 6 months and equipment periodically checked. 

 

Generator/ alternator, rate of turn indicator, attitude indicator, ball, clock, altimeter, radio/ nav equipment (appropriate for flight!) DG/ heading indicator.

 

IFR  aircraft instrument rules for flight Australia CASA

 

I suspect the kit build and Garmin G3X GNX375 we will use on Rans S21 won’t meet requirements in Australia. Can anyone shed light on this? I’ve been digging a bit with hard going…

 

I think there’s a 50% chance I’ll finish IFR training here. Well, it changes day to day. Almost confident and just a few years younger and better hearing more energy and I’d be 90%. Whatever happens it’s definitely a huge learning curve and worth the time and effort to safer better flying. 
 

Pics…..instructor was jumping out of his seat a few days back. The actual IMC conditions allowed him to log the approach to Lincoln NE. 😀

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_1043.MOV

They are not so loose in Australia, and when you take in the time and cost of currency training at the close intervals required in the aircraft with the TSO specifiations required, IFR, practically starts with a CPL rating and a job flying several times a week, to cover the cost, otherwise many thousands of dollars per week.  I would strongly suggest you go to the CASA site and spend the hours necessary to track down each qualification/Rule, the minimum aircraft equipment required (usually top end GA singles or twins), and particularly the hours you have to fly that aircraft at that hire rate per year just too keep your currency.

[Ironpot]

“I suspect the kit build and Garmin G3X GNX375 we will use on Rans S21 won’t meet requirements in Australia. Can anyone shed light on this?”
 

If you have to carry an alternate, currently for private and aerial work( i.e. not Charter) the requirement is one TSO 145 (or higher) or TSO 129 plus ADF/VOR 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Ironpot

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, Ironpot said:

“I suspect the kit build and Garmin G3X GNX375 we will use on Rans S21 won’t meet requirements in Australia. Can anyone shed light on this?”
 

If you have to carry an alternate, currently for private and aerial work( i.e. not Charter) the requirement is one TSO 145 (or higher) or TSO 129 plus ADF/VOR 

IFR activity and specifications are found at the top end of GA, usually as part of Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) training and as the entry for RPL.

You might get some reactions on a recreational flying site, but you really should do as I recommened to Mike Gearon. The information is on the CASA site but is huge and spread over many links and will take days to compile. I would just look at the currency frequency in hours per year - more than many RA pilots' total log book time and multiply that by $400 - $700.00 per hour, nd it will cost that much every year plus buying an IFR aircraft.

[Mike Gearon]

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

IFR activity and specifications are found at the top end of GA, usually as part of Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) training and as the entry for RPL.

You might get some reactions on a recreational flying site, but you really should do as I recommened to Mike Gearon. The information is on the CASA site but is huge and spread over many links and will take days to compile. I would just look at the currency frequency in hours per year - more than many RA pilots' total log book time and multiply that by $400 - $700.00 per hour, nd it will cost that much every year plus buying an IFR aircraft.

Excellent. I’ll not research and simply abandon any IFR ambitions in Australia. you’ve saved me a lot of time.

Flew Lincoln to Omaha yesterday and back with 2 approaches. All good until I was given a long read back fixes, headings and altitudes and couldn’t deal with it. That’s why we have an instructor! Take over the radio.

 

At this point I’d say as I was advised. IFR training makes you a better safer pilot. That’s enough to justify the current torture and I don’t have to reach the finish line.

 

Even the FAA SEL PPL conversion is challenging. CASA are steadily working with me. It does however seem to be something they usually do for flight crew. It’s a work in progress that’s been going on for many months. They are suggesting I convert the RAA certificate. I don’t care which works. Just the simplest option so I can fly the RANS S21 as N number in Oz.

 

I submitted on form 61-9TX for foreign license conversion.
 

RAA conversion is apparently form 61-1RTX

 

 

 

 

[Bosi72]

Part 91. 26.08  Aeroplane IFR flight

 

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020L01514/Html/Text#_Toc57289514

 

 

To get instrument rating, you need to:

hold at least a private pilot licence (PPL)

study the aeronautical knowledge syllabus

pass the instrument rating exam. (info from CASA website)

[Mike Gearon]

5 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

Part 91. 26.08  Aeroplane IFR flight

 

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020L01514/Html/Text#_Toc57289514

 

 

 

Does all the reg stuff look like this?

 

I’ve read that 3 times and it doesn’t make any more sense so no point in 4 goes. I suspect it actually says Experimental aircraft can’t have these rules applied to them and can’t fly IFR.

 

26.16  Application — VFR and IFR flight requirements do not apply to certain Australian-registered aircraft

        (1)     In this section:

relevant aircraft means any Australian-registered aircraft that is not an experimental or light sport aircraft.

        (2)     Division 26.3 or 26.4 of this Chapter does not apply to a relevant aircraft if the aircraft is fitted with equipment, compliant with the requirements of, or approved under, Part 21 of CASR, which provides for the aircraft’s intended operation a level of safety equivalent to that which would be achieved if Divisions 26.3 or 26.4 (as the case requires) applied.

        (3)     For subsection (2), CASA’s consideration of safety equivalency must take into account whether the type certificating authority for the aircraft considers that the aircraft achieves, for its intended operation, a level of safety equivalent to that which would be achieved if Division 26.3 or 26.4 applied.

        (4)     For subsection (3), type certificating authority means such an authority of a recognised country.

[Bosi72]

1 hour ago, Mike Gearon said:

Does all the reg stuff look like this?

 

I’ve read that 3 times and it doesn’t make any more sense so no point in 4 goes. I suspect it actually says Experimental aircraft can’t have these rules applied to them and can’t fly IFR.

 

 

 

To my understanding the rule says if experimental or UL aircraft is certified e.g. in the US as IFR, then it can be registered in Australia as IFR too.

 

However, you'll get the most accurate answer by contacting CASA directly.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The procedures stuff is better done in a simulator as regards cost..  (and safety).   If a Licence is ACAO compliant it should be accepted by the majority of Countries but a separate Air Legislation exam is fairly  normal  The USA ATR is accepted widely.  (Air Transport Rating). Nev

[Mike Gearon]

11 hours ago, facthunter said:

The procedures stuff is better done in a simulator as regards cost..  (and safety).   If a Licence is ACAO compliant it should be accepted by the majority of Countries but a separate Air Legislation exam is fairly  normal  The USA ATR is accepted widely.  (Air Transport Rating). Nev

simulator here is crap. They get a new one September. 3 curved 50” screens. This one is worse than useless. At least a 2 second latency. It’d be great to pause and review or pause and correct. Last flight when approach gave me too much and I was rattled I delayed turning. Still, it’s a lesson. Hear the heading and altitude and turn and start descent etc  as it’s read out. Ask again for the rest. Anyway, that’s my current take on it. As far as safety goes we have the instructor. 200ft AGL foggles off. I’ve never or so far had the slightest concern with safety.

 

Yes, if I was just 30 years younger I’d go Air Transport Rating. My ATR friends here invariably say they’ve never had a job. They just get to fly.

 

I’m starting to think I could do this. Practice exam at 81% yesterday and just need one more 80% or higher and I can sit the IFR exam. I won’t do so until I hit 90%. I’ve discovered prognostic charts are actually useful and should be understood. Work in progress.
 

I reviewed Omaha approach ILS 14L and I could do this on my own right now IFR. Barely. Like the 90% exam I won’t take IFR checkride unless super confident. There’s always 2023 to take it after a 1 year breather then reinforce all I’ve learned.
 

Image below. Waypoint/ fix CFTZP is puzzling. I read the 5 letters must be pronounceable. We had a bit of fun attempting it. Australian ZED and USA ZEE didn’t help.

 

I’m really glad the instructor didn’t push us over to 14L. He was telling me we were right of course and I could see it on instruments….Just didn’t want to over correct close in. Lesson learned! In a repeat I’ll take a very definite 5 degrees briefly then straighten up again even before needle centres. Repeat as required smaller closer in. 14R burned into memory,amd we weren’t completely over to it. 
 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mike Gearon

[MattP]

Gnx375 / G3x should fit the bill assuming you have another nav source say vor nav comm, or second tso gps source. I can’t remember the reg exactly but those lists aren’t stacked, ie read for the or part. I’d also double check with the saaa as someone should be able to help. All this assumes you’re vh registering too. 

 

Also consider in au were about 15 years behind so don’t have LPV approaches, the most precise you’ll get for a gps approach (lowest minimums) is LNAV/VNAV (baro vnav). From memory the gtn 7x and maybe 6x are the only navs that can do that paired with the right panel. Read the Garmin fine print. TLDR is that WaaS GPS aren’t really giving you anything in au right now, although the sbas rollout is happening any time “read before 2100ad” 😉 

 

As to conversion just mail casa, the faa site was clear on conversion of foreign ifr ratings, just pass the exam, but it looks like casa want that and the flight test, meaning doing the IREX and flight review.

 

As for review / recency, the PIFR rating here allows for private ifr ops with a 2 year review and no ipc. That being said, you still need to keep your currency, the onus just goes to you as an individual. It’s designed exactly for that reason, allowing ppl to do pvt ops under ifr without the heavy requirements built into the ifr rating (old cir). Again once you have your faa ifr ticket, ask casa about converting to pifr here if you’re not commercial and it may be an easier way to fly ifr here privately. As you’re already familiar with the flying part, it’s just getting used to the differences and reg requirements which you’ll need to do anyhow. Best to talk with a school who can advise or who specialise in pifr training. I spent a lot of time searching when I did mine for the right place to not just do their full ifr commercial syllabus and only get the pifr. Shop around, and look for a place who will work with you to your situation not who will just ask you to re do the whole thing again.

 

I agree you’ll need to fly regularly, which as I’ve mentioned on here before was a good forcing function for me to be current, as you’re building your own plane that should be a non issue. You can just file ifr regularly, use it or lose it. I find it’s usually much easier than vfr going anywhere as you’re in the system, e.g. rather than praying to get cleared through Melbourne class c from the east going west or north, just file overhead as per the aip and go. You may get vectored for traffic but you’ll not get a stay octa from them.

 

 

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Its all too hard here to try to maintain a IFR rating especially for a Experimental VH kit built aircraft. The cost of the required instruments and all the training and currency required. Burning up wads and wads of $100 notes is fine if your printing them yourself. Even commercial pilots are struggling to do the tests and flight reviews and they do it for a living. Wasting your time and money Mike

[Mike Gearon]

Thanks MattP. That’s a whole lot of good information. Our Garmin installer is of the option on the G3X install will meet IFR requirements. We will work toward this regardless of completing IFR training in USA or Australia. Yes, N numbered.

[Mike Gearon]

2 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

Its all too hard here to try to maintain a IFR rating especially for a Experimental VH kit built aircraft. The cost of the required instruments and all the training and currency required. Burning up wads and wads of $100 notes is fine if your printing them yourself. Even commercial pilots are struggling to do the tests and flight reviews and they do it for a living. Wasting your time and money Mike

Well, we have a mutual aquantaince who was very vocal on why I shouldn’t train IFR. It did flip me into glider training and I’m thankful for that experience. I then went on to floats in Alaska and one of the guys there was a Kiwi. Fisher and Parker engineer who developed that wonderful direct drive. He had just completed IFR and told me how much it improved his flying. I’d also read a book on the accident curve. At 350 hours and IFR the rate of accidents reduces dramatically. Bloody statistics. Annoying as they are they you can use to separate fact from biased opinion.
 

Time and money?

 

At 64 I’ve just sold the business that took most of my time for over 2 decades. I guess a few of us are at the age where we both have loads of time and aren’t sure how much of it we have left. Is it better spent watching tv? Probably not.

 

Money? Difficult subject probably best not discussed other than I’m very happy to have spent the say 20k AUD I’ve put into this. I noticed when I came back to CTAF’s last year after initial IFR training the radio calls and situational awareness were suddenly so easy compared to being under the hood talking with ATC.

 

I have 20k invested in safe flying at this point. Radio and situational awareness hugely increased in VFR conditions minus whatever farm machinery induced hearing loss and whisky induced cognitive decline is going on.

 

IFR flying… My Lincoln NE dentist pilot friend/ fellow Rans S21 builder was explaining while I had mouth full of dental tools how he did IFR 20 years ago then flew IMC and was so shook up he had his commercial pilot brother fly him home. I also listen to “There I was” The AOPA podcast on pilots who,survived some bad shit. Yeah,  don’t do it. 

 

Practice…. If I make it through I’ll practice and maintain proficiency. 6 approaches and a hold per 6 months isn’t that arduous. I’ve been amazed how the scan starts to happen on its own. My personal favourite is V and inverted V. That rudder ball is a slippery little sucker in IFR. No nose to horizon to sort. 
 

Amazing OSH Kosh fact…..

 

I get to show yesterday and 2nd stand I see is the Diamond 4 seater with 40ft wing. Spectacular aircraft.. have to have a look.  Then I see Marcel. Marcel has flown his Husky into my farm runway and I’ve known him for 40 years. What are the chances! We will watch the OSH Kosh night show together with wives tomorrow night. 

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

Back from OSH  Kosh. Flew with chief flight instructor Rich. 
 

1.9 hours. I did okay. Debrief I found out I’m spending a buck and a quarter and only have a buck. We will aviate and navigate but not communicate next few lessons to get back to 75 cents. Then see if we can manage the dollars worth.
 

I’m now doing AR Sim. A phone app that progresses your radio. Only problem is it demands a strong American accent. Refused to accept “Hawker” until I had it pronounced hoahrkerrr. Horka won’t do it. We don’t realise the w and r are barely pronounced in genuine Ozzie English.
 

Pics.
Flight today.

Rich the chief instructor

Mosquito helicopter at Osh Kosh. I’ve heard Victa lawnmowers that sounded more healthy. Fascinating to watch that tiny helicopter hover and turn. Tiniest of pilot inputs. I never want to fly one.

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

Only another week then heading home. IFR has been a journey I’d really prefer to have had a better map for. After first lesson and a basic understanding of the fine control and scan needed  I’d 100% ask to sit back seat on an approach with my own approach plate open and watch and listen to com and record on a hand held GoPro. I think that’d be 20 hours ahead of the 40 hours I’m at now….

 

Speaking of maps… that little blue aircraft in the approach plate below makes such a difference. Also being able to make notes directly on the approach plate in foreflight. Not sure if AvPlan has similar. If I do IFR in Australia this is essential to stay ahead of the aircraft. Just circle the FAF and notate altitudes and call out altitudes and I realised yesterday I can augment the Garmin navigator and aircraft nav aids just by zooming in on that plate. 
 

Instructors make such a difference. I thought I might give up on myself or Hunter would give up on me after a truly awful approach with communication induced error and no real recovery and a real missed approach. I decided to leave it behind and he brought his A game to help setup the Garmin. 90kn approach held and it was near perfect.

 

 

 

 

[Bosi72]

5 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

Not sure if AvPlan has similar.

 

Yes, in AvPlan PRO you can choose approach plates overlying ERC charts and have all features that you'd normally use when VFR (screenshot attached). 

 

I believe there is a theory exam in the US similar to IREX or PIFR in Oz, where you learn theory, which I suggest to study and pass. Not sure about the CASA conversion process.

 

Also good thing is you can practice procedures from your home using x-plane or some other simulators, save $$ coming prepared for lessons.

 

Enjoy flying

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Bosi72

[MattP]

Yep you can annotate charts in OzRunways. Note the aircraft overlay is also shown I just aren’t anywhere near the airport ☹️.

 

Using your home sim connected to the iPad in sim mode also helps get your flow right and saves time and $$ on procedural stuff.

 

I’ve gone completely paperless now with iPad and Apple Pencil (and backup tablet).

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by MattP

[Mike Gearon]

Thanks for that. I flew with the instructor instructor today. 67 year old retired from the airlines and an extensive period in the FAA. I was surprised because he wouldn’t let me off any  radio calls 😀. When I really gave up he just called approach with “say again” I had to step up.

 

Just the right amount of assist on the approaches. Definitely helps to mix up the young instructors with the hugely experienced ones. 

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

Thanks for that. I flew with the instructor instructor today. 67 year old retired from the airlines and an extensive period in the FAA. I was surprised because he wouldn’t let me off any  radio calls 😀. When I really gave up he just called approach with “say again” I had to step up.

 

Just the right amount of assist on the approaches. Definitely helps to mix up the young instructors with the hugely experienced ones. 

He did you a big favour because he was training you in "RealTime".  Did you see Channel 9 news of the Jetstar engine fire this week?, the precision of the Pilot's radio call, the Fire call, the straight ahead landing/stop.

[MattP]

Yep, seems like he’s being a so and so but he’s doing you a favour, showing what you need to keep up with and that you can ask again for info. Also don’t sweat it when you make a mistake, learn from it and hopefully you’re debriefing with the instructor when you get back too.
 

it will feel for a while like you’re juggling whist on a unicycle with flying in imc, briefing an approach and dealing with a controller but you just get used to it after a while and it clicks.

 

Also where you learn to appreciate currency being king, no matter the hours in your logbook if you’re not current and confident you can be dangerous.

 

oh and a good autopilot!!!

[Mike Gearon]

Flew with chief instructor Rich again today. First time I’ve done all radio work. 2 approaches, 1 extended hold and a course reversal. Rich sorted my previous problem with distraction during radio or gps programming. When on GPS scan back to just attitude and more importantly trim out for hands off then go hands off. Worked really well. 
 

Almost 2 hours and I enjoyed it and wasn’t tired. Bloody surprised! 1 more flight tomorrow with the instructor instructor then off to Hawaii for 3 days then home. Good part is I do IFR exam at Honolulu. Booked.

 

IFR aerobatic. I turned that sucker upside down and tried it. It insists on upside down.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Mike Gearon

[Mike Gearon]

Studying back here for PIFR. NDB’s seem to be a big deal. We barely touched on them in USA. I purchased David Robson Navigation. 
 

it’s the first aviation book I really find enjoyable to read. Very clear. NDB’s and the previously cursed relative bearing now make sense. 
 

Plan to start PIFR soon and a pilot buddy who unexpectedly dropped on at French Island has PIFR and said NDB’s were also barely mentioned. 
 

 

[MattP]

The written exam covers them and so you need to know enough to answer those,  even though as in my case the aircraft I was training in didn't even have an adf. I guess it's the leveller as given the permutations of fpa's you could select it would make it too hard to cover.

 

The basic as tested pifr without fpa's only allows you enroute ifr with visual approaches by day until you add them via fpa's. Also remember if you don't have nvfr and get night fpa on your pifr you can only operate at night under ifr not vfr....unlike the ifr rating.

 

Talk to your instructor about your plan and what you want to do and they can work out the fpa's you need, as some are prerequisites of others from memory.

 

For books I also found many I read just covered all the ifr theory not covering the private side either by focusing on the material tested or the differences in pifr vs ifr exam and rating or the differences in private ifr ops vs the assumed commercial in the ifr rating.

 

I'd highly recommend the Australian private pilot instrument rating book by Chris Markham which covers the pifr specifically. Its available from skylines and comes as a binder. Combined with the usual Bob Tait etc. It answered the hardest question I had for thr pifr exam... what the f#$% is the difference with the pifr, and why isn't there a book?!

[Mike Gearon]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

 

 

I had for thr pifr exam... what the f#$% is the difference with the pifr, and why isn't there a book?!

😀 there’s a lot of curious stuff out there. The PIFR does seem to be a good CASA option the FAA don’t have. 
 

I’ll get that book. Small money for books compared to IFR flight costs