Four Killed Following Midair Collision in Las Vegas

[farri]

https://www.flyingmag.com/four-killed-following-midair-collision-in-las-vegas/

[FlyBoy1960]

Yes, parallel runways AGAIN !     Should have been on right and tried to land on left.   Most stupid aviation thing ever built, two runways side-by-side about 100 meters apart

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

Yes, parallel runways AGAIN !     Should have been on right and tried to land on left.   Most stupid aviation thing ever built, two runways side-by-side about 100 meters apart

I take it you fly at a quiet field There's a big difference between that and a busy city airport which takes a few hours to learn, but inexperienced pilots just rock up and think they can wing their way through. (There's also learning the other way round - coping with cross winds, staying on a narrow runway.)

 

I've flown out of North Las Vegas and it's a very relaxed field to fly out of.

It's runways are 231 metres apart compared with Moorabbin at 214 so 8% further apart.

Annual movements at North Las Vegas are 176,00 comared to Moorabbin's 295,000, so Moorabbin has 70% more traffic.

In a dual circuit in your own RH or LH circuit, so miles apart most of the time, then you turn in towards each other on base, so there's a good opportunity to see several aircraft coming towards you for their final. When you turn on to fi you will be 757 feet away from the other person if he turns correctly at the same time as you do, so a huge amount of space. If the pilots are turning base at 500' they will be travelling slightly different circuits, if they turn downwind at 1000'  they will be on different downwinds, when they make their base turn it will be at different locations, but they should come intoi line on final. The tower guys have seen this 176,000 times a year, so they know where you should be in this group based on your aircraft performances (C172 get to 500' first, C152 get there sometime latyer etc) biut if you come in from the country strugglihng with both the traffic and the clipped radio you could get well out of your expected place, and the Tower guys will have difficulty "seeing' you. Again this isn't a one sided swipe at country flyers. Plentyof city pilots have come out into the country and rolled it upsiode down into a shed because they'd never seen a crosswind. In the city you learn to position and talk; in the country you learn to fly.

 

 

 

[onetrack]

I'm not sure that FlyBoy1960 has it right. It appears the Cessna was cleared to land on Runway 30R and was on short final for that runway, and the Piper was cleared  to land on Runway 30L. But it appears the PIC of the Piper lined up for Runway 30R. The worrying part is ATC saying, "I think I said". Doesn't sound like very professional ATC to me.

 

Quote

The tower acknowledged the Piper and advised it would be landing on Runway 30L. The instructions for the approach to 30L were acknowledged by the Piper, according to the LiveATC recording.

The Cessna was then cleared for the option to Runway 30R, and when the tower advised the Piper they were cleared to land on 30L, the pilot acknowledged the transmission: “30 left cleared to land, 9 Charlie X-ray.”

The tower then came back with: “9 Charlie X-ray I think I said 30 left, Runway 30 left.” and the Piper pilot replied, “30 left that’s what I heard, 9 Charlie X-ray.” 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by onetrack

[FlyBoy1960]

I was only commenting on something which was on social media shortly after the accident.

 

There could or could not be any truth to what I read regarding the runway clearances but they made it very clear in what I read that the Cessna  was doing the right thing and the other aircraft dropped into the Cessna. 

 

Of course this information will be corrected at the start of the investigation.

 

I was just  commmenting maiinly about the fact that parallel runways have a lot of accidents especially when you havve  students operating on contra circuits and they don't have the skills to turn properly yet or to maintain a centreline.

[turboplanner]

52 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

I'm not sure that FlyBoy1960 has it right. It appears the Cessna was cleared to land on Runway 30R and was on short final for that runway, and the Piper was cleared  to land on Runway 30L. But it appears the PIC of the Piper lined up for Runway 30R. The worrying part is ATC saying, "I think I said". Doesn't sound like very professional ATC to me7...

 

At Moorabbing the instruction for runway comes quite early, but given that he would usually automatically allocate the circuit based on the side of first approach, he would have good reason to remember if he broke the East/West traditional split.

At least with this one there'll be the NTSB report.    Moorabbin tips attached.

WX00201.pdf

Edited July 19, 2022 by turboplanner

[turboplanner]

53 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

I was just  commmenting maiinly about the fact that parallel runways have a lot of accidents especially when you havve  students operating on contra circuits and they don't have the skills to turn properly yet or to maintain a centreline.

I haven't checked the ratio of circuit accidents vs movements, but bear in mind at Moorabbin and North Las Vegas it doesn't take too many years to get to a million movements, vs the single runway airports.

 

The students are ususally hammered by the instructor on circuit position, height as tight as 20 feet, protocols, radio etc right from lesson one so that by solo their competency at positioning is probably above that of many visiting pilots. I haven't seen an alaysis of pilot hours in circuit positioning accidents, but a few years ago students were the safest pilots outside RPT.

 

Remember, the alternative to dual runways is to cap the number of movements and send half the pilots away, usually firther out of the city.

[Garfly]

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Good information on the video of the double confirmation of the pilot that the intent was to land on 35L. 

At that point I'd say that ATC could see she was heading for 35R, and that was a warning really saying "You're on the wrong runway" but they don't seem to want to go that far. I had an issue when cloud rolled in and I called an amendment to the clostest airfield. Melbourne Centre came back with "You realise XXX is not an ALA?"

I chose a potential wombat hole against falling out of the sky, and found half a dozen aircraft parked there.

 

I would place 90% of the cause of this collision on the non standard landing approach; out too far and not stable on downwind; no formal decision point i.e. looking back over the shoulder at the end of 35L at 45 degrees to make base turn; a straight line base to free concentration to look across at 35L; a turn on to final lined up on 25L because its in subconscious vision right back to the 45 degree vision point; then the whole of final flying straight and seeing two runways.  The military might make them but their density is nowhere near a dual runway city airport and getting down in a spiral is faster and has some military advantages, but you effectively don't come out of the spiral and you are making directional, elevation and ground spacing decisions all at the same time. You may be having to make a decision on whether Number 2 will get down because number 1 is a C152 and will usually float, and if number 2 gets down will you have to go round and your doing this right near the end of the runway whereas in a rectangular circuit you've levelled the wings, trimmed,  more concentration is available and you have a birds eye view of everything ahead of you including a much longer view period of the end of runway.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

One thing I got from the AOPA presentation: the Cessna can lift a wing to see if anyone is there, but I doubt the low-wing aircraft can manoeuvre enough to match that visibility.

[Garfly]

A mere glance at their CDTI (cockpit display of traffic information) would have done it, though.

[facthunter]

More proof of the BIG SKY theory not applying.. Nev

Edited July 20, 2022 by facthunter

[FlyBoy1960]

48 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

One thing I got from the AOPA presentation: the Cessna can lift a wing to see if anyone is there, but I doubt the low-wing aircraft can manoeuvre enough to match that visibility.

you sit in front of the wing in that aircraft so visibility forward and to the side should be reasonably good. It all comes down to just the same problem as most of them and that is we get distracted in the cockpit and don't keep a good enough look out. See and be seen, see and avoid and all the other things which are taught.    Why couldn't ATC just say keep the left turn going you look like you are lined up on the wrong runway and there is traffic near you or something like that ?

[Garfly]

21 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

you sit in front of the wing in that aircraft so visibility forward and to the side should be reasonably good. It all comes down to just the same problem as most of them and that is we get distracted in the cockpit and don't keep a good enough look out. See and be seen, see and avoid and all the other things which are taught.   

 

My view is a bit different on this issue, as expressed previously in this little rave:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Garfly

[red750]

On 19/07/2022 at 11:34 AM, FlyBoy1960 said:

Yes, parallel runways AGAIN ! 

 

Bankstown has (or had) 3 parallel runways. I last flew there in 1977/8, but the map (satellite image) on the internet still shows 3 runways.

 

[Flightrite]

Simple pilot error, too many make a big fiasco out of it! Humans make mistakes, nothing new here and un-fixable!!

[facthunter]

Maybe but "everyone makes mistakes" doesn't cut it. The system has to provide back ups where possible and Instruments like 3 hand altimeter improved. . 2 crew is a big improvement where they both are properly integrated to check the other.  Pilots can be overloaded when first learning a new skill that's complex while maintaining separation from other's etc.. CLEAR and unambiguous calls and some way of recording clearances . Also FAST planes get lost faster. Don't get behind the plane. That's what being a pilot is all about.   Nev

[Flightrite]

Two crew are better? Truck me! There’s more dead bodies in cemeteries from so called well trained two crew driven planes than any other arrangements! Accidents happen, it’s human nature and it will continue to happen as long as the species remains alive & connected with machines (which won’t be long if the Grubby Greens get their way!)

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

Two crew are better? Truck me! There’s more dead bodies in cemeteries from so called well trained two crew driven planes than any other arrangements! Accidents happen, it’s human nature and it will continue to happen as long as the species remains alive & connected with machines (which won’t be long if the Grubby Greens get their way!)

Ah, the Greens did it! I knew they would be in there somewhere.

[Garfly]

33 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

Simple pilot error, too many make a big fiasco out of it! Humans make mistakes, nothing new here and un-fixable!!

Good job not everyone in the industry has been so fatalistic over the years:

 

How aviation safety has improved

“When I started in the business almost 30 years ago, my boss had one basic message: You have to expect an average of 20 jetliner losses around the world every year,” recalls Josef Schweighart, Head of Aviation Germany, AGCS. “Thankfully, such statistics are now history,” he says. “There has been a staggering reduction in the numbers of both fatal accidents and fatalities in the intervening decades, the result of technology, improvements in air traffic control and pilot training,” he adds.

 

Source:

https://www.agcs.allianz.com/news-and-insights/expert-risk-articles/how-aviation-safety-has-improved.html

[red750]

I think one of the most common occurances is when an aircraft is following a slower one down final. If one is lined up on the wrong runway, they can't see the other one below them and catches up and collides with them. Pilot error for being lined up with the wrong runway,but ATC should be keeping an eye out.

[facthunter]

I did QUALIFY the 2 crew situation..  It's not just a matter of having someone sitting there, like a flag in a bottle...  Nev