"NOTAMs: just a pile of garbage" NTSB

[Garfly]

I've long been exasperated by the way (obligatory) NOTAMs are presented to pilots, so I was glad to find this video recently.  It seems to me that their purpose is less about having time-critical info understood by pilots than it is about covering the backsides of bureaucrats; to have the blame fall exclusively onto pilots when things go wrong. The crown prosecutor can point to the relevant NOTAM of the day (having had ample time to dig it out and have it decoded) "See, your honour, they simply should have known" and the judge, on the face of the clear 'evidence' can but sagely nod. "Guilty as charged."

 

 

 

 

 

Last year I wrote to OzRwys support about the way NOTAMs are handled in their SmartBrief feature"

 

 "I’m curious about how and by-whom notams get selected/ordered? Is there a way around having to wade through tons of dross to get to the few morsels that matter. For example in this little (test) plan, I was interested to see if the notam about the grass strip at Taree being unavailable, due soft and wet, would turn up. I reckon that this would be, perhaps, the most important piece of info for anyone flying in who didn’t otherwise know that. Well yes, it does turn up ... but right at the bottom of the very long list - at #58 in this particular instance."            (15/7/21)

 

OzRwys reply:

"This is because NOTAMs are very poorly sorted by the authorities (currently under a big review by CASA) and we are not given geographical information to link them more logically for users."

 

OzRwys does what they can by offering a way for the user to give a star or a thumbs-down to individual messages:

 

https://docs.ozrunways.com/ozrunways/4a_brief-smartbrief-page.html#notam-grading-system

 

but this process would, itself, take a long time and I guess is useful mainly for pilots who fly the same route often - so they don't have to wade through the same rubbish every time - with the ever attendant risk of missing the biggy.

 

I'm curious to know what has come of CASA's 'big review'.  (I'm not holding my breath)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Garfly

[facthunter]

While they have you operating under "strict Liability" You have no defence anyhow, but IF THEY undertake to provide certain operational documentation it's on them to ensure it's factual, sufficient, relevant and accessible.. Nev

[Garfly]

Here are some interesting posts from the YT Comments:

 

danofzanzibar

9 months ago

So true. I issue NOTAMs and train others on issuing NOTAMs. There are NOTAMs that may be technically required, but really serve no useful role other than cluttering up the NOTAM retrieval pages and hiding the NOTAM's that actually are important. So I'm left trying to figure out ways to creatively minimize the NOTAM's I issue and then make the decision between doing what is the right and useful course of action and the action prescribed by regulation.

 

 

Craig Good

3 years ago

First thing is that NOTAMs and weather should be in plain English. This dense code is stupid in an age when we aren't using 30 BAUD teletypes.

 

 

Matthew Butler

3 years ago

I think the issue is that in order to pick out and determine which are applicable to you, you still have to read each in its entirety. For example the one they read regarding taxiway barred, it didn't say who it all applied to until the very end (aircraft with wingspan larger than...)

 

Andrew Truax

1 year ago

Realistically, if every airline pilot went over every relevant NOTAM for every flight in a single day, they would have literally no time for other tasks.

 

Tom Nguyen

2 weeks ago (edited)

NOTAMS need to be prioritized and filtered so that the important ones aren't lost in the layers of more insignificant NOTAMS. Plus the raw text is awful to read.

[kgwilson]

It is quite pathetic that Weather and Notams are still produced in this dumb code. Almost every aviation weather app available has a plain English translation except  Air Services. They come up with all sorts of reasons why it remains so like having to comply with international standards. Bollocks, they could provide both in the same app by selecting the appropriate tab or ask in settings which one you want like Avia Weather et al. I set this as my default including changing Zulu to local time.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Quite right KG. The only purpose of writing in code is to cloud the message. Yes, the code may have served a purpose in the days of teletypes, but those days have long gone.

Once I said to myself GAGOY (  get a grip on yourself ) and BAM ( be a man ) and JLUTFG ( just look up the f....  glossary ) only to find the second acronym was not even in the glossary!

Two things are obvious...

1. The exercise is for the protection of bureaucrats. This has been noticed already.

2. Don't have an accident! They might get you anyway, but it helps not to compound the issue.

[facthunter]

IF you are going far, stick to Zulu time. Anyhow it's the standard reference.  Nev

[kgwilson]

I can see the point of sticking with Zulu, BUT all modern devices know the local time from either the GPS or the local cell tower so it is fast becoming irrelevant as well.

[facthunter]

You will get errors if you don't all use the same reference.  Nev

[spacesailor]

It,s  STILL ALL BUREAUCRASY.

They make the paperwork to suit themselves. Sitting at an office desk, gives them heaps of time to undo what They have done, without any time restraints.  ( paper shuffling )

spacesailor

[MattP]

Zulu time makes sense to ensure everyone is using the same reference, not even just the big guys, think flying from Hamilton in vic to mt gambier in sa or a longer trip in au, which depending on the time of year can sit across 4 different time zones. in this regard local time is a pita and I just use the clock in the plane. 
 

Decoding the notams / wx nowadays when we don’t have the same constraints we did in the 40s tech wise is insane. Even if you keep the notation format but expand it to full wording. We could easily run in parallel and continue to train for a period on the existing format if needs be. Similar to how we all train with maps e6b and compass and then grab our shiny iPad to fly (at least most of us).

 

for that matter, we have the tech to translate to multiple languages, infer context and even build a visual model of the weather depicted rendered in 3d if someone thought about it for 5 mins. Either way I think we can do better than a standard codified in the 40s. 
 

[Bennyboy320]

Most airlines give you between 10-15 mins planning time in the briefing office to go through NOTAMS, weather & come up with a fuel figure, that’s it, so it behoves you to do some preflight prep in your own time before your duty starts to avoid things slipping through the cracks.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Bennyboy320

[Garfly]

On 08/08/2022 at 1:18 PM, Garfly said:

OzRwys reply (July '21):

"This is because NOTAMs are very poorly sorted by the authorities (currently under a big review by CASA) and we are not given geographical information to link them more logically for users."

I'm curious to know what has come of CASA's 'big review'.  (I'm not holding my breath)

Actually I just got back to OzRwys Support asking if they'd heard of any progress on that and I received this reply:

 

" I don't have any news unfortunately. I tried to find information on review online but didn't have any luck.

Interestingly I did find this article from CASA's Flight Safety Australia magazine: 

 

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2020/07/missing-the-message/

 

This article was written in 2020, but to me it suggests our Australian authorities may be waiting on recommendations from ICAO that will fix the NOTAM problems.  Big wheels turn slowly, but it sounds like progress! "

 

I hadn't seen that article before, it's called Missing the Message. It's a good read but disappointing to see so little improvement since.

[Garfly]

 

 

U.S. House Passes Bill to Improve NOTAM System

https://www.flyingmag.com/u-s-house-passes-bill-to-improve-notam-system/

 

 

 

I, for one, am hoping that the same happens here.  As I posted above:

 

"Last year I wrote to OzRwys support about the way NOTAMs are handled in their SmartBrief feature"

 

 "I’m curious about how and by-whom notams get selected/ordered? Is there a way around having to wade through tons of dross to get to the few morsels that matter. For example in this little (test) plan, I was interested to see if the notam about the grass strip at Taree being unavailable, due soft and wet, would turn up. I reckon that this would be, perhaps, the most important piece of info for anyone flying in who didn’t otherwise know that. Well yes, it does turn up ... but right at the bottom of the very long list - at #58 in this particular instance."            (15/7/21)

 

OzRwys reply:

"This is because NOTAMs are very poorly sorted by the authorities (currently under a big review by CASA) and we are not given geographical information to link them more logically for users." "

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Garfly

[facthunter]

It requires decisions on what NOTAMS apply to your operation. There's the  COST element and time of notification by you of your operation prior to ETD  Nev

[Garfly]

43 minutes ago, facthunter said:

It requires decisions on what NOTAMS apply to your operation. There's the  COST element and time of notification by you of your operation prior to ETD  Nev

 

Nobody's giving olde-world personal briefings to recreational flyers these days.

Of course It's all done by machine (and if you're using an EFB's 'smart brief' app, it's based on your electronic flight plan - submitted or otherwise) and it's ready in an instant, no matter how close to your ETD.

 

But the point is that people in power don't regard notams as conveyors of information so much as coverers of backsides (that is, their own).

Who cares that the one crucial bit of info was buried deep in the middle of masses of irrelevant garbage.: "You can see, Your Honour, that the information was plainly available and so the agency itself is blameless and the prosecution rests its (strict liability) case."

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Garfly

[facthunter]

Well if they are presenting you with all the unnecessary Dross, It's clearly NOT working . CASA or whoever is delegated to the job must ensure accuracy regardless of the format.. It should also be in a useable form for operational  purposes.. Nev

[Jabiru7252]

When I was working we would be arranging NOTAMS quite a lot. And as a pilot I never seemed to have much of a problem with them, even before computers made life easier. And that's coming from one who struggles with his laces.

[Garfly]

22 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Well if they are presenting you with all the unnecessary Dross, It's clearly NOT working . CASA or whoever is delegated to the job must ensure accuracy regardless of the format.. It should also be in a useable form for operational  purposes.. Nev

 

 

Well, yes, exactly!

That's why I'm hoping the US effort to fix NOTAMs trickles down to us, sooner rather than later.

It's not like professionals are any better off than amateurs; they're worse off, having to deal with it every day.

To repeat a few of the comments (presumably from professionals) to the original YouTube video (above).

 

Matthew Butler

3 years ago

I think the issue is that in order to pick out and determine which are applicable to you, you still have to read each in its entirety. For example the one they read regarding taxiway barred, it didn't say who it all applied to until the very end (aircraft with wingspan larger than...)

 

Andrew Truax

1 year ago

Realistically, if every airline pilot went over every relevant NOTAM for every flight in a single day, they would have literally no time for other tasks.

 

Tom Nguyen

2 weeks ago (edited)

NOTAMS need to be prioritized and filtered so that the important ones aren't lost in the layers of more insignificant NOTAMS. Plus the raw text is awful to read.

 

 

And it's not like the problem is not known locally.   There was this Flight Safety Australia article from 2020:

 

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2020/07/missing-the-message/

 

Missing the Message : How do you find the vital pre-flight information you need

when it’s buried deep in a stream of NOTAMs? This frustration, felt by pilots around the world

is finally being addressed—but don’t expect change anytime soon

 

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

I agree with all those comments. It's like 100% pass required with a heap of trick questions in quicktime.  Nev

[old man emu]

It's one thing to find and read the NOTAMS applicable to a particular flight, but it's also damned hard to get AirServices to respond to a request to issue one.

 

If the event I'm planning does become a reality, I will need to advise pilots not involved in the competition that between certain hours there will be a lot of traffic around Tooraweenah, and along the route of the event. I contacted AirServices to ask how to put this information into a NOTAM. That was a month or so ago. I'll let you know when they reply.

[kgwilson]

Notams will not be issued for unregistered and uncertified aerodromes.

[facthunter]

They are listed for dangerous activity like parachuting or active firing ranges. What has the process been on previous Air Races/events?   Nev

[Garfly]

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

It's one thing to find and read the NOTAMS applicable to a particular flight, but it's also damned hard to get AirServices to respond to a request to issue one.

 

If the event I'm planning does become a reality, I will need to advise pilots not involved in the competition that between certain hours there will be a lot of traffic around Tooraweenah, and along the route of the event. I contacted AirServices to ask how to put this information into a NOTAM. That was a month or so ago. I'll let you know when they reply.

When I had a query about a particular NOTAM not long ago, I got a quick and useful reply from the:

 

Network Coordination Centre Duty Line Manager Airservices Australia

[email protected]

 

 

[Student Pilot]

On 28/01/2023 at 3:01 PM, facthunter said:

Well if they are presenting you with all the unnecessary Dross, It's clearly NOT working . CASA or whoever is delegated to the job must ensure accuracy regardless of the format.. It should also be in a useable form for operational  purposes.. Nev

It's the way of CASA, there's a term some people use covers this "Always was, always will be"

Another "We're from CASA and we're not happy till your not happy"

[facthunter]

Those views have been around for a LOOOooooooooonngg time..  If you can understand it, let us know and we will fix it..   Nev