GAMI G100ul Unleaded aviation fuel finally approved by FAA.

[Thruster88]

The other thread has been closed so only discussion about price, availability and suitability etc, no global warming  or intelligence BS please. 

 

A brief recap of how GAMI developed the product and how it may all work. I think it will be a very good thing for anyone with a traditional certified aircraft or engine.

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

Looks like it will be Ok. Clean plugs a plus.

 

Noting his comments on refinery mods it will probably take 10 years or so before we get it in Oz - unless direct from the USA.

 

I see mention of a 90c a gallon price increase for it..😬

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ian]

It is a big achievement however it's probably about 20 years too late.

From a value perspective using mogas and water mw50 injection starts to look pretty good. That's 90c in the US which based on the general pattern of pricing means about double over here, and that's an optimistic 90c

With 80% of traditional certified engines having the ability to run on straight mogas it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Garfly]

 

 

 

[Ian]

Thanks for that, it's good for someone to wrap a bit of analysis on the practicalities.

In reality the only way that this will work is if drop dead dates are set for the phase out of leaded fuel. From an STC point of view does it make more sense to buy one for this fuel or mogas?

On the one hand you will have compatibility across the fleet however it comes with an reasonably pricey STC and higher fuel prices. On the other hand you will have a cheaper and readily available fuel which only covers 80% of the fleet, some of which will require STCs which is about USD $1.50 per HP.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/pilots/eaa-stc-program/auto-fuel-stc

 

I watched a presentation by an analyst recently who was of the opinion that we're already in the next cold war and his arguments were somewhat compelling.  If that's the case supply chain security might garner a little more focus from Government. I think that his strongest argument related to the sell off of US treasury bonds by China which significantly reduces the potential for fiscal collateral damage. Of course tea leaf gazing is a difficult business. 

 

[Flightrite]

Can’t see it’s use here for a very long time! It’s Australia remember! 

[Flying Binghi]

The claims of clean plugs and less valve stick sound good, but, let the crash test dummies try it out. 

 

We have a cheaper Av fuel in Oz now. Why rush.

 

The yanks will ‘refine’ the concept and ultimately make the fuel cheaper as there is more competition. Ten years from now is the go…🙂

 

 

 

 

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[Ian]

6 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said:

We have a cheaper Av fuel in Oz now. Why rush.

Personally I'd rather see lead phased out as soon as possible. Even relatively small amounts show an impact on children's IQs. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8162884/

Given the choice I'd ban it tomorrow, I think that its continued use is negligent to the point of being criminal. As an industry aviation would deal with it. 

While lead IQ relationships are reasonably easy to measure a more insidious linkage relates to violent crime and antisocial activities. All in all it's a bad news story and a sucking chest wound on the industry.

[facthunter]

The Bromine additive used to remove the Lead from engines is just as much a problem.   It's the right thing to responsibly do, but there are still other sources of lead contamination that need to be tidied up. Nev

[Ian]

I agree, just search on google for lead contamination children Broken Hill. There's also a lot of sites in and around capital cities where environmental lead is high.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sydney-s-toxic-footprint-the-suburbs-most-at-risk-from-lead-contamination-20191130-p53fnx.html

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The Bromine additive used to remove the Lead from engines is just as much a problem.

What's the issue with Bromines? I know that organobromides are are bit nasty however you can get bromide pool sanitisers. Not saying you're wrong I just don't know.

[facthunter]

All of the Halogens are a bit suss with human tissue. Iodine fluorine Bromine etc. Look up Halogens on wiki Highly reactive elements. Nev

[Flying Binghi]

4 hours ago, Ian said:

Personally I'd rather see lead phased out as soon as possible. Even relatively small amounts show an impact on children's IQs. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8162884/

Given the choice I'd ban it tomorrow, I think that its continued use is negligent to the point of being criminal. As an industry aviation would deal with it. 

While lead IQ relationships are reasonably easy to measure a more insidious linkage relates to violent crime and antisocial activities. All in all it's a bad news story and a sucking chest wound on the industry.

 

“…violent crime and antisocial activities…”

 

Criky!!! I didn’t realise the local leaded avgas burning airport had such a collection of villains………..…🤔…… 

… I’m going to look at the refuelling truck driver in a whole new light..😄

 

I see sea spray has lead in it. That would explain why surfers are so dumb…😄

 

 

As always - its the DOSE that matters. If yer living next to an old lead mine be concerned. Apart from that there’s a lot more gunna kill yer or stupefy you. 

 

I see there is a new term out there - Type 3 diabetes. Go stupid in old age all thanks to the high sugar content of modern food…🤨

 

 

Compared to what’s naturally in the Oz environment the amount of lead aviation puts out in Australia is 1/16 of a poofteenth of sweet f-all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Flying Binghi]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

The Bromine additive used to remove the Lead from engines is just as much a problem.   It's the right thing to responsibly do, but there are still other sources of lead contamination that need to be tidied up. Nev

?

 

Isn’t that the stuff yer get in Himalayan table salt ?

 

 

I would suggest you don’t bath in avgas. Apart from that, if yer believe wikipedia:

 

“…it now appears that bromine is an essential trace element in humans…” 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromine

[Ian]

1 hour ago, Flying Binghi said:

Compared to what’s naturally in the Oz environment the amount of lead aviation puts out in Australia is 1/16 of a poofteenth of sweet f-all.

Again rather than just channelling, I'll give you a couple of references and a quote.

Quote

In the United States, general aviation piston-driven aircraft are now the largest source of lead emitted to the atmosphere.

https://qz.com/2158594/do-you-live-near-enough-to-a-small-airport-to-have-lead-exposure/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305924497_Costs_of_IQ_Loss_from_Leaded_Aviation_Gasoline_Emissions

 

In the last 100 or so years atmospheric lead levels increased by a factor of 200 over baseline levels.  

Also any the vast majority of the lead that we get from the oceans we put there.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1417370111

https://www.science.org/content/article/3d-maps-reveal-lead-laced-ocean

 

There's a nice little too that might by of help https://gprivate.com/60r5c

 

[Flying Binghi]

2 hours ago, Ian said:

Again rather than just channelling, I'll give you a couple of references and a quote.

https://qz.com/2158594/do-you-live-near-enough-to-a-small-airport-to-have-lead-exposure/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305924497_Costs_of_IQ_Loss_from_Leaded_Aviation_Gasoline_Emissions

 

In the last 100 or so years atmospheric lead levels increased by a factor of 200 over baseline levels.  

Also any the vast majority of the lead that we get from the oceans we put there.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1417370111

https://www.science.org/content/article/3d-maps-reveal-lead-laced-ocean

 

There's a nice little too that might by of help https://gprivate.com/60r5c

 

Hmmm… Does not my quote say “the Oz environment”, and to be doubly sure I mention “in Australia”…😑

I’ll leave the yanks to work out their aviation.

 

Re the links: I suppose if you give me 300 million dollars, with the promise of more to come, to go sail around the world and identify pollution in the worlds oceans - Well, I’ll find pollution…😄

 

Back with Australia:

 

“…The main lead mineral is galena (PbS), which contains 86.6% lead by mass. Cerussite (PbCO3) and anglesite (PbSO4) commonly occur in the near-surface weathered or oxidised zone of lead orebodies.

 

Lead deposits form from hot, aqueous (or hydrothermal) fluids generated within the earth. These fluids flow along sub-surface fractures, where galena and other minerals may be deposited to form vein deposits. Fluid flow can also occur in aquifers, and in limestone, galena and other ore minerals can precipitate in cavities to form rich but patchy deposits. Some fluids may reach the ocean floor in areas of underwater volcanic activity to form 'volcanogenic' deposits. Examples of this last type of deposit are presently forming under the ocean off Papua New Guinea, Canada and elsewhere in the world. Other fluids may escape to the surface into shallow seas, and, under suitable conditions, lead-zinc-silver deposits may form.

 

For thousands of millions of years, deposits have been forming in these manners, and may eventually be exposed at the surface following weathering and erosion. Some are completely eroded away and may be recycled by natural processes into the earth. Partially eroded deposits exposed at the surface were relatively easily discovered; examples include Broken Hill in 1883 and Mt Isa in 1923. These deposits formed the basis of Australia's lead-zinc silver mining industry…”

 

 

https://www.ga.gov.au/education/classroom-resources/minerals-energy/australian-mineral-facts/lead#heading-5

[pmccarthy]

I grew up in Broken Hill and don’t believe I was intellectually impaired. But anyone living alongside a major road in our cities would have ingested far more lead than I did.

[Flying Binghi]

44 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

I grew up in Broken Hill and don’t believe I was intellectually impaired. But anyone living alongside a major road in our cities would have ingested far more lead than I did.

Thats the thing, even if there were never a mine at Broken Hill there would still be a lead rich soil via the natural weathering. 

 

Having a look-see at the lead deposits map of Oz it is every where. Lead gets spread around via dust storms, via bush fires, via creeks, and via ground water. Those who think we can have a nil lead environment in Oz are fooling themselves. 

 

Lead from aviation is not even registering on the natural background levels.

 

 

 

 

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[onetrack]

More guesswork from the FB ....

 

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1003231#:~:text=Lead emitted from aircraft using,Agency (EPA) 2010].

[Flying Binghi]

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

More guesswork from the FB ....

 

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1003231#:~:text=Lead emitted from aircraft using,Agency (EPA) 2010].

 

Hmmm… Sometimes if yer want to get the ‘correct’ result yer just have to employ the ‘correct’ researchers. Lets have a brief look-see…

 

Via the onetrack link:

“…Residence in poor and minority neighborhoods was also associated with elevated lead levels. In contrast, recently constructed housing units were associated with decreased mean lead levels…”

 

..”minority neighbourhoods”. Hmmm… Perhaps we need to have a look-see at what else these researchers are up to….

 

“…Racial residential segregation has been associated with preterm birth. Few studies have examined mediating pathways, in part because, with binary outcomes, indirect effects estimated from multiplicative models generally lack causal interpretation. We develop a method to estimate additive-scale natural direct and indirect effects from logistic regression. We then evaluate whether segregation operates through poor-quality built environment to affect preterm…”.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24681575/

 

Looking at the research I guess non-‘whites’ must live in old houses. Likely next to an old industrial estate, that’s usually located next to the ‘airport’. Nothing like kids playing in the dirt of an old industrial estate when they could be playing in the dirt of a new housing development out in the hills…

 

I guess them bad bad whites flying around in their little airplanes are to blame…🤨

 

 

onetrack, I’m gunna have a further look-see at this research. I’d like to define just which ‘airports’ they used and have a look at the surrounding location. 

 

 

 

 

🙂

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Flying Binghi

[Ian]

11 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

I grew up in Broken Hill and don’t believe I was intellectually impaired.

You're as bad FB just believing stuff,  have you had it measured? 😉

 

[Ian]

1 hour ago, Flying Binghi said:

Hmmm… Sometimes if yer want to get the ‘correct’ result yer just have to employ the ‘correct’ researchers. Lets have a brief look-see…

Yup, it all a conspiracy, lead's good for you, climate change is a mass hysteria phenomenon and those Government types are alien reptiles and they're covering up the coming invasion. If it's too warm the planet won't be suitable anymore.

 

I think that you're in the position that the science is still out on what reasonable lead levels are even though Government health bodies have been consistently lowering the reasonable thresholds

The recognised safe levels of lead have been progressively reduced as the toxicity has been recognised. Australia still has a Pb threshold of 10.

 

There have been a number of comments that lead is naturally occuring substance and in the environment anyway. That's not true in to any reasonable extent. Atmospheric Lead created by leaded fuel spewed a huge amount of lead into the environment basically creating a nice lead right across the planet. This increased our environmental exposure by about 200x over normal, pre-industrial exposures. There is no safe level of exposure to lead so every reduction helps. For that reason the GAMI alone program should be lauded, tolerating lead in avgas has gone on for far too long.

 

Yes lead was naturally occuring however the naturally lead minerals tended to stay put, locked away geologically. The fact that you can liquefy lead at room temperature and include it is fuel still blows my minds. 

 

Also in relation to Bromine it's the Bromine based fire retardants which are being increasingly viewed as high risk chemicals.

https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/protection/chemicals-management/brominated-flame-retardants

 

 

 

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

29 minutes ago, Ian said:

You're as bad FB just believing stuff,  have you had it measured? 😉

 

Yer never know. I see he’s got the tail wheel on the wrong end of the aircraft…😃

[Flying Binghi]

4 minutes ago, Ian said:

Yup, it all a conspiracy, lead's good for you, climate change is a mass hysteria phenomenon and those Government types are alien reptiles and they're covering up the coming invasion. If it's too warm the planet won't be suitable anymore.

 

 

Hmmm… please do point to the posts referring to all that...🤔

 

 

7 minutes ago, Ian said:

I think that you're in the position that the science is still out on what reasonable lead levels are even though Government health bodies have been consistently lowering the reasonable thresholds

 

And, yet. There are all them natural sources referenced in the gov.au.edu web site I linked to…🤫

 

Perhaps Ian thinks they will be closing down the umpteen millions of geothermal vents around the world. No more drinking bore water or eating fish caught outer creeks and so on…🙂

 

As I’ve said before, like every thing in life, its the dose that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

🙂

[Flying Binghi]

Furthering my research on the onetrack posting.

 

I note reference to North Carolina in the research. For one thing NC has a lot of current and old copper mines which means…🤔 …including todays related industry’s they have an interest in monitoring lead:

 

“…In May 2016, a North Carolina Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program (NC CLPPP) epidemiologist noted clusters of elevated blood lead levels (BLL) among 16 children documented as take-home lead exposures in North Carolina’s lead surveillance system. Local lead investigators visited the homes of the children with confirmed BLLs greater than 5 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL). They found lead dust on household members’ work boots, laundry areas, car upholstery, and children’s car seats. NC CLPPP partnered with North Carolina’s Occupational and Environmental Epidemiology Branch (OEEB), which houses the Adult Blood Lead Surveillance (ABLES) program. Through this partnership, NC CLPPP determined that the children’s exposures were linked to employees of two workplaces: a lead oxide manufacturer with 26 current employees and a battery manufacturer with over 400 employees. As the employees resided in multiple counties, the investigation crossed many jurisdictional boundaries…” 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/programs/nc.htm

 

 

🤔… I don’t see any mention of aircraft ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[pmccarthy]

2 hours ago, Ian said:

You're as bad FB just believing stuff,  have you had it measured? 😉

 

Yes about two inches unfortunately.