Pilot dead after plane crash in bushland south of Townsville 11/09/2022

[Blueadventures]

18 minutes ago, jcruffle said:

To allay a lot of speculation and rumours, there was no Mayday call and almost certainly no engine failure. The photograph in the local paper was of a different aircraft involved on a different crash. Gutter journalism. Wait for the coroner’s report before shooting off your mouths and accepting hearsay as the truth. 

Thank you for the clarification, and condolences to family and mates of the pilot involved.  My thoughts are with you all at this time.

[BrendAn]

14 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I thought there were more Rotax engine failures in the last lot???

3 percent more than jab according to what I read.

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

3 percent more than jab according to what I read.

If you want to get into an engine catfight quote the Model, series, dates,  numbers, and what the failure was.

 

[FlyBoy1960]

46 minutes ago, jcruffle said:

To allay a lot of speculation and rumours, there was no Mayday call and almost certainly no engine failure. The photograph in the local paper was of a different aircraft involved on a different crash. Gutter journalism. Wait for the coroner’s report before shooting off your mouths and accepting hearsay as the truth. 

Some of us will be dead before there is a coronors report based on past findings, we dont have 10 years to wait!. 

 

I want to learn as much as a can within a reasonable timeframe

 

[BrendAn]

40 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

If you want to get into an engine catfight quote the Model, series, dates,  numbers, and what the failure was.

 

I was just answering Bruce. I read the same survey that put Jabiru ahead of rotax. 

[onetrack]

Despite FlyBoy1960 jumping to some very premature and unwarranted conclusions about this crash in particular - the RA reports just for this year alone, show a concerning high percentage of Jabiru engine failures.

RA reporting is inadequate to address the reasons behind the engine failures as it is obvious that a percentage of Jabiru engine failures are not due to poor Jabiru engine design - but as a result of poor maintenance or poor engine operation.

 

You can't lay the blame for engine failures at Jabirus feet when reports list items such as failing to use carburettor heat when it was required, or for spark plug leads falling off because they weren't properly secured.

RA crash and incident reports need to be produced in a different format with a clear summary outlining the precise reasons behind the crash/incident, in a similar format to ATSB reports.

 

A concise summary gets the message through without the need to wade through reams of incidental information, which many people will not do.

A permanent link to RA-Aus accident and defect summaries needs to be added to this forum, so RA pilots have prompt and easy access to the reports.

 

https://www.raa.asn.au/our-organisation/safety/accident-and-defect-summaries/

[turboplanner]

44 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I was just answering Bruce. I read the same survey that put Jabiru ahead of rotax. 

Attach it then, with the identification showing what is being compared.

[kgwilson]

It appears that this crash and the unfortunate fatality did not have an engine failure as one of the possible causes. The debate over engine reliability is therefore irrelevant. All engines are man made and none are 100% reliable. Any engine can fail. Correct and timely maintenance will reduce the risk of failure. The 4 top causes of aero engine failure are 1 fuel starvation, 2 fuel contamination, 3  carburettor icing, 4 Fuel system problems.

[William2020]

1 hour ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

Some of us will be dead before there is a coronors report based on past findings, we dont have 10 years to wait!. 

 

I want to learn as much as a can within a reasonable timeframe

 

Saying nothing is far more responsible then posting the factually incorrect inventions you have posted above - whether with malicious intent or not.

[William2020]

17 hours ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

It came from a pilot in the area who heard the call, spoke to him today at the airport.  How do you think they found the aircraft so quickly ?   They knew where to look because of the pilots call.  Do you want the pilot's name who heard the mayday call ?

 

Don't shoot the messenger if there is something you don't like hearing.

Yes I do because he is a liar.

[Yenn]

To come up with some answer to what happened when you don't know what happened is stupid, but it also shows others how reliable you are. I prefer to keep my mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and dispel all doubt.

[Jabiru7252]

18 hours ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

Its reported by ATC in a mayday call.  Not bashing but its a fact of life.  You have a MUCH higher chance of an event in a Jabiru powered aircraft than anything else. Just ask CASA.

It's not the statistics, it's the lame way you posted.

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Attach it then, with the identification showing what is being compared.

i will when i can find it again.

[extralite]

Maybe referring to this study, although it only looks at Jabs up to 2014?  https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5769864/ar-2013-107-final-report.pdf

[RFguy]

Jabiru engines and faults should be discussed in a different forum topic.

there are many, or interested parties can start a new one .

[FlyBoy1960]

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2019L00926    I am guessing you complied with this at the time ?

 

Try and find his anywhere else for any other aircraft excluding the Mini 500 "helicopter"

 

 

  “I, [insert name] PROPOSE TO TAKE A FLIGHT IN THE AIRCRAFT IDENTIFIED AS [insert registration information] (THE AIRCRAFT). I AM AWARE THAT THE CIVIL AVIATION SAFETY AUTHORITY (CASA) HAS DATA INDICATING THAT THE TYPE OF ENGINE USED IN THE AIRCRAFT HAS SUFFERED A HIGH NUMBER OF FAILURES AND RELIABILITY PROBLEMS.

              “I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT CASA HAS IMPOSED LIMITATIONS ON THE AIRCRAFT TO PROTECT PERSONS ON THE GROUND NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE OPERATON OF THE AIRCRAFT, UNINFORMED PASSENGERS AND TRAINEE PILOTS. THOSE LIMITATIONS ALSO HELP PASSENGERS AND TRAINEE PILOTS TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION ABOUT WHETHER TO ACCEPT THE RISK OF FLIGHTS IN THE AIRCRAFT.

              “I NOTE CASA’S ADVICE THAT, ALTHOUGH MOST JABIRU ENGINES OPERATE NORMALLY, THERE IS AN ABNORMAL RISK THE ENGINE IN THE AIRCRAFT WILL MALFUNCTION.

              “I ACCEPT THE RISK OF AN ENGINE MALFUNCTION DURING FLIGHT, NOTING THAT:

“(A)  THE AIRCRAFT MUST BE FLOWN AWAY FROM PEOPLE ON THE GROUND (AND BUILDINGS), EVEN IF THAT MEANS AN EMERGENCY LANDING AT A LOCATION THAT IS LESS SAFE FOR THAT PURPOSE; AND

“(B)  THE SAFETY OF AN EMERGENCY LANDING CANNOT BE GUARANTEED EVEN IF THERE IS A SUITABLE LANDING LOCATION.

              “I NOTE CASA’S ADVICE THAT I SHOULD NOT FLY IN THE AIRCRAFT IF I AM NOT PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE HEIGHTENED RISK INVOLVED.

              “I ACCEPT THE RISK NOTING THAT THE ENGINE MANUFACTURER IS WORKING TO IDENTIFY AND FIX THE ENGINE ISSUES AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

              “I AM AWARE THAT CASA REQUIRES MY SIGNATURE ON THIS STATEMENT BEFORE THE FLIGHT MAY COMMENCE.

              “SIGNED:                                             DATE:            

[onetrack]

But ... there has been a CASA relaxation of the above restrictions, which needs to be taken into context with the earlier Jabiru engine failures history.

 

You need to look at the whole picture, including the maintenance regime on many Jabiru engines, where numerous owners and maintainers were not following Jabiru recommendations.

And of course, there have been Jabiru engine design upgrades since 2014.

 

https://australianaviation.com.au/2016/07/casa-eases-restrictions-on-jabiru-engines/

[turboplanner]

55 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2019L00926    I am guessing you complied with this at the time ?

 

Try and find his anywhere else for any other aircraft excluding the Mini 500 "helicopter"

 

 

  “I, [insert name] PROPOSE TO TAKE A FLIGHT IN THE AIRCRAFT IDENTIFIED AS [insert registration information] (THE AIRCRAFT). I AM AWARE THAT THE CIVIL AVIATION SAFETY AUTHORITY (CASA) HAS DATA INDICATING THAT THE TYPE OF ENGINE USED IN THE AIRCRAFT HAS SUFFERED A HIGH NUMBER OF FAILURES AND RELIABILITY PROBLEMS.

              “I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT CASA HAS IMPOSED LIMITATIONS ON THE AIRCRAFT TO PROTECT PERSONS ON THE GROUND NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE OPERATON OF THE AIRCRAFT, UNINFORMED PASSENGERS AND TRAINEE PILOTS. THOSE LIMITATIONS ALSO HELP PASSENGERS AND TRAINEE PILOTS TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION ABOUT WHETHER TO ACCEPT THE RISK OF FLIGHTS IN THE AIRCRAFT.

              “I NOTE CASA’S ADVICE THAT, ALTHOUGH MOST JABIRU ENGINES OPERATE NORMALLY, THERE IS AN ABNORMAL RISK THE ENGINE IN THE AIRCRAFT WILL MALFUNCTION.

              “I ACCEPT THE RISK OF AN ENGINE MALFUNCTION DURING FLIGHT, NOTING THAT:

“(A)  THE AIRCRAFT MUST BE FLOWN AWAY FROM PEOPLE ON THE GROUND (AND BUILDINGS), EVEN IF THAT MEANS AN EMERGENCY LANDING AT A LOCATION THAT IS LESS SAFE FOR THAT PURPOSE; AND

“(B)  THE SAFETY OF AN EMERGENCY LANDING CANNOT BE GUARANTEED EVEN IF THERE IS A SUITABLE LANDING LOCATION.

              “I NOTE CASA’S ADVICE THAT I SHOULD NOT FLY IN THE AIRCRAFT IF I AM NOT PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE HEIGHTENED RISK INVOLVED.

              “I ACCEPT THE RISK NOTING THAT THE ENGINE MANUFACTURER IS WORKING TO IDENTIFY AND FIX THE ENGINE ISSUES AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

              “I AM AWARE THAT CASA REQUIRES MY SIGNATURE ON THIS STATEMENT BEFORE THE FLIGHT MAY COMMENCE.

              “SIGNED:                                             DATE:            

This is a routine Safety Warning for a recogised issue, and a routine part of public liability - very similar to a recall notice in the auto industry. 

It is making a passenger aware of a higher level of risk than perhaps another aircraft the same, but with a different, pr later model, engine,

In the aircraft may also have identification for the passenger that he/she is travelling in an aircraft that has a higher lever of risk than an airline trip.

If you study the Public Liability page you'll see the background to this and the reasons why.

[RossK]

How about we refer to the current instrument CASA 31/22 from July 1 2022

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2022L00917

 

Key point here is section 4.3 - basically if you maintain the engine as Jabiru specifies, then it doesn't apply. 

4          Condition on authorisations

        (1)     This section applies to the following classes of authorisations, issued in relation to a Jabiru‑powered aircraft:

(a)   an experimental certificate;

(b)   a certificate of airworthiness;

(c)   a special flight permit.

        (2)     For the purposes of subregulation 11.068 (1) of CASR, it is a condition that the aircraft is operated in accordance with the operating limitations stated in Schedule 1.

        (3)     However, subsection (2) does not apply if all the requirements stated in Schedule 2 have been met in relation to the aircraft.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that report linked by extralite above was roasted by the Senate Inquiry Committee as being a joke and was critically flawed.

Edited September 14, 2022 by RossK

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, RossK said:

Also, I'm pretty sure that report linked by extralite above was roasted by the Senate Inquiry Committee as being a joke and was critically flawed.

Can you give us the dates of the Senate Inquiry Committee?

[extralite]

Have you listened to some of 

3 minutes ago, RossK said:

 

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that report linked by extralite above was roasted by the Senate Inquiry Committee as being a joke and was critically flawed.

Have you listened to some of our senators though? Hard to give them much credibility either.

[RossK]

Just now, extralite said:

Have you listened to some of 

Have you listened to some of our senators though? Hard to give them much credibility either.

Yes, the CASA hearings I've seen, the CASA execs make the Senators look very sharp.

[RossK]

11 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Can you give us the dates of the Senate Inquiry Committee?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPyTIbuvLI8&t=1s

[BrendAn]

4 hours ago, extralite said:

Maybe referring to this study, although it only looks at Jabs up to 2014?  https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5769864/ar-2013-107-final-report.pdf

it was a recent report and i think it may have been from the usa.   this one here is the earlier aus one when jabs were failing a lot more than the others.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, RossK said:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPyTIbuvLI8&t=1s

This was not a Senate Inquiry, just an interrution of a Senate Rural & Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee.

The Senator interrupting was warned around 11:25 that he was "3  times over the limit."

It was just one Senator from Queensland raising dust.

He threatens an Inquiry at the end, but as far as I recall an inquiry never took place.

On this site we established the number of engines involved, pretty much all the issues, and I personally established who did the investigations which CASA relied on (which was not the report from RAA which included a flat tyre as an engine failure etc.)

Edited September 14, 2022 by turboplanner