Small plane missing Victoria 18/09/22

[BrendAn]

Just now, BurnieM said:

Can we stay on topic ?

 

Instructors personal minimums and general macho male attitudes are not part of this thread.

 

 

 

great, getting my arse kicked again.  got the message , sorry

[facthunter]

Waste of time using any intelligence here. . Just when I thought/hoped WE might be getting somewhere. Dumb it ALL down, You deserve it but maybe your passengers don't.   Nev

[turboplanner]

25 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 Both including Low level and aerobatics. in GA.  A wide range of planes in the AUF/ RAAus field . Having Height is a good thing where its applicable.. . When you are a bit advanced Lower level smaller circuits MIGHT be a good thing to practice . Nev

Lower level circuits where?

[BrendAn]

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Waste of time using any intelligence here. . Just when I thought/hoped WE might be getting somewhere. Dumb it ALL down, You deserve it but maybe your passengers don't.   Nev

Give it a rest. I was joking. 

You are quite happy to dish it out.

Stop sulking and stop the thread drift as requested.

[facthunter]

You do them anyhow in a slow and draggy plane 500 ft. and I said MIGHT.  under certain circumstances . Nev. 

[facthunter]

 Keep your very) amateur Psychology to yourself Brendan . I've Put a lot of effort into those Posts on your behalf. . Nev

[Litespeed]

Back on track....

 

 

I am listening Nev, 

 

About height, I was always taught be at least two mistakes high to give you space to recover when it goes wrong. We need to be way ahead of the aircraft or we are just passengers.

 

How fast and heavy makes a big difference to the envelope of safety.

 

Everything is dependent on conditions and weather is a cruel mistress whilst physics is a evil bugger that refuses to be beaten.

 

 

[Thruster88]

Having read the coroners report it appears to me that the pilot after flying some 40 km down the Keiwa valley either inadvertently or intentionally entered Instrument Meterological Conditions after turning east over the high terrain. The jabiru 230 was then climbed to an altitude of 8697 feet before loss of control. Cloud top were forecast to be around 10,000

 

The report states the aircraft was not equipped for instrument flight which would be technically true. Some form of Artificial Horizon may have been fitted, a Dynon? Was it a case of, have Dynon I got this.

 

 

[kgwilson]

If it was Spatial Disorientation it is well known that pilots disbelieve what their instruments are telling them because their mind is saying "No I am S&L". I once got sucked up into the base of a CU in my hang glider & got spat out the side. I thought I was S&L but was almost 90 deg to the horizon when in the clear.

 

I also flew deliberately in to IMC in My Archer 2 about 30 years ago as I was in a valley surrounded by hills with tops in the cloud and no safe landing area. I set my original heading & climbed, eyes glued to the panel and saying to myself continually "believe the Instruments". I came out the top at over 9500 feet. I continually had to fight the urge to turn. The 5 hours under the hood was some of the best spent time while training for my PPL.

[BurnieM]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Having read the coroners report it appears to me that the pilot after flying some 40 km down the Keiwa valley either inadvertently or intentionally entered Instrument Meterological Conditions after turning east over the high terrain. The jabiru 230 was then climbed to an altitude of 8697 feet before loss of control. Cloud top were forecast to be around 10,000

 

The report states the aircraft was not equipped for instrument flight which would be technically true. Some form of Artificial Horizon may have been fitted, a Dynon? Was it a case of, have Dynon I got this.

 

Even if the pilot and plane had been IFR rated with a freezing level of 4500 was it a good idea to be in cloud above this ?

Too many judgement errors.

 

Edited February 18 by BurnieM

[Freizeitpilot]

I did a lot of my early training at an ALA. if the weather was crap, ie low cloud base, the CFI would simply say, a great day to practice some low level circuits ! Some day you may get caught with a lowering cloud base and ultimately need to do a precautionary landing. The ‘freedom’ at an ALA allows you to practice these things with an instructor.

[facthunter]

Spot on. Nev

[Love to fly]

6 minutes ago, BurnieM said:

 

Even if the pilot and plane had been IFR rated with a freezing level of 4500 was it a good idea to be in cloud above this ?

Just another in a series of judgement errors.

 

Would the pilot know anything about the risk of icing given the training he had received? Do unpowered paraglider pilots cover icing etc when training? 

Edited February 18 by Love to fly

[facthunter]

Do GA PPL or U/L pilots know about icing?  To me it's obvious that at the height he reached the Plane was probably covered in it and was going  no place but down. Most non IFR experienced pilots wouldn't have got as far as he did.  Nev

[Love to fly]

28 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

If it was Spatial Disorientation it is well known that pilots disbelieve what their instruments are telling them because their mind is saying "No I am S&L". 

My early IFR lessons I struggled with S&L and upset recovery. Not just trusting the instruments, but retraining my brain to focus on them, treat the AH like it was the view out the window, and keep my scan going. Without an autopilot, reliable IFR instruments, practise and training it would be really really difficult. 

[FlyBoy1960]

I am just wondering after reading it again over lunch why the flight instructor was not called to give evidence. He is mentioned thousands of times but was never interviewed ?

 

What's going on there ?

[Love to fly]

4 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

I am just wondering after reading it again over lunch why the flight instructor was not called to give evidence. He is mentioned thousands of times but was never interviewed ?

 

What's going on there ?

I think maybe you missed the bit where it says he is deceased.  It's stated in the Coroner's Findings. 

Edited February 19 by Love to fly

[FlyBoy1960]

Interesting ?     

 

Accident or self-inflicted ?

 

I would be worried in his position

[Love to fly]

1 minute ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

Interesting ?     

 

Accident or self-inflicted ?

No suggestion of anything other than a medical event. I believe he was in his 80's. If you haven't read the Coroner's Findings as opposed to what's here, and in the media it may be worthwhile. Attached here for your convenience. COR 2022 005430 Form 37-Finding into Death Following Inquest_Signed.pdf

[BrendAn]

29 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

Interesting ?     

 

Accident or self-inflicted ?

 

I would be worried in his position

dumb comment. geoff was not well. he passed away in hospital

[FlyBoy1960]

it's not a dumb comment because I didn't know the person. I had no idea of his age or even where he is located and flying from.

 

I just noticed when I was reading it a 2nd time during lunch that he was not on the witness list and thought he would be a real obvious person to bring into the inquest.

 

When you read the coroner's negative comments about him it made me wonder very briefly if he had passed from natural causes or self-inflicted (I have been listening to, too many crime podcasts).

 

I could think of myself in his shoes wanting to do whatever was necessary to avoid this sort of scrutiny and stress.

[BrendAn]

39 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

it's not a dumb comment because I didn't know the person. I had no idea of his age or even where he is located and flying from.

 

I just noticed when I was reading it a 2nd time during lunch that he was not on the witness list and thought he would be a real obvious person to bring into the inquest.

 

When you read the coroner's negative comments about him it made me wonder very briefly if he had passed from natural causes or self-inflicted (I have been listening to, too many crime podcasts).

 

I could think of myself in his shoes wanting to do whatever was necessary to avoid this sort of scrutiny and stress.

thats ok but no need to insinuate that he might have topped himself.  

[kgwilson]

7 hours ago, Love to fly said:

My early IFR lessons I struggled with S&L and upset recovery. Not just trusting the instruments, but retraining my brain to focus on them, treat the AH like it was the view out the window, and keep my scan going. Without an autopilot, reliable IFR instruments, practise and training it would be really really difficult. 

No I don't think you need anything more than I had. I had no IFR training just 5 hours under the hood with recovery from some very weird AOA scenarios with all steam gauges. Just keep scanning DI (compass), VSI, AH, ASI & engine handling stuff as normal. It is different for every individual but if I'd failed this part I would not have got my PPL. Worked for me & I had 3 passengers at the time.

 

The problem is there is nothing like this in the RA syllabus. No spin (or incipient spin) training either.

[Dieselten]

I've also read the coroner's report and apart from some poor airmanship decisions, I am dismayed to see how poorly RA-Aus senior management came out from the investigation. Hopefully senior management have taken these issues very much to heart and made the necessary changes.

 

Our "corporate culture" was lacking. The conflict of interest in being both the administrator and the investigator is also a cause for concern, but that seems to be a result of the ATSB refusing to investigate any accident which doesn't involve either a GA or RPT aircraft. 

 

Perhaps it is time to put together an independent organisation to investigate accidents occurring in any of the SASAOs. We are very much behind the curve in this respect. The APF in my view, does a far better job in this area than we do, releasing a statement of facts within a few days of a fatality to squash all the rumours and plainly state exactly what took place without making any prognostications as to likely cause(s) etc.All we do is a bald statement about a fatality with bare details as to the aeroplane, location and how many persons were involved. The APF provide a high level of detail as to equipment used, age and experience of the person(s) involved etc, whilst preserving their anonymity.

 

Of course, there are the questions of "who constitutes it" and "who funds it" to be answered, but the fact is we are somewhat impoverished in the field of independent investigation, and this leaves it to the Police and the coroner to come up with answers. In my view this is very unsatisfactory. The membership remains poorly informed when what we really need is information we can all use to try and prevent such an accident happening in the future.

 

The single most obvious thing for me was what we already know; if you are not trained for IMC flight, and your aeroplane is not equipped for IMC flight, don't go IMC. On top of this, if you think conditions may render you prone to ice developing on your aircraft, don't fly in those conditions. There is no place for hubris in any form of aviation. I was once asked where my sense of adventure was. I replied "one step behind my sense of self-preservation and determined to stay there". That finished the conversation.

[turboplanner]

25 minutes ago, Dieselten said:

The conflict of interest in being both the administrator and the investigator is also a cause for concern, but that seems to be a result of the ATSB refusing to investigate any accident which doesn't involve either a GA or RPT aircraft. 

We got close to setting up a skilled investigation group in the RAA Inc. days.

 

When you are self administering you (RAA) have the duty of care to eliminate risk. You are the body licensing the members to fly, you have to ensure they come home. The governments are reflecting the opinions of the voters, who aren't interested in paying their taxes to prop up sport and recreation. CASA allowed AUF/RAA INC/RAA LTD on this basis through exemptions. 

ATSB is capable of investigating complex issues to prevent endemic failures in heavier aircraft and a Drifter cracked in half in a ditch is hardly beyond RAA's a Self Administering Organisation's ability; you just have to set something up that suits your sport/recreation.

 

In my experience with various sports/recreation self administering organisations over the past 30 + years most organisations have survived, and are operating with similar numbers to the mid 1980s. RAA still has those numbers also.

 

The recent attempt by someone to shift responsibility on to ATSB shoulld be seen for what it is.