Small plane missing Victoria 18/09/22

[facthunter]

There's a big difference between "FLYING" and the other activities you always relate to. ATSB only INVESTIGATE INCIDENTS/ACCIDENTS and are an INDEPENDENT BODY with the requisite Authority. So are the POLICE.   CASA and RAAus are NOT. Nev

[onetrack]

There would need to be an unacceptable impost on RAA members to cover the cost of RAA-run aircraft crash investigations and subsequent reports. It cannot be justified.

 

The bottom line is the telling Coronial witness evidence given in the email written by Iain Clarke  (page 50 and 51 of the Coroners report). Iain Clarke describes Matthew Farrell as an accident looking for a place to happen, with a brash and arrogant attitude that he knew everything, better than anyone else.

 

The question remains as to whether the RAA pilot training syllabus needs to be modified to weed out people who suffer major personality defects, that makes them unsuitable for pilot training.

It should be noted that the commercial pilot of the Metroliner that crashed at Lockhart River managed to escape detection, as highly unsuitable for commercial flight operations, due to his personality defects.

[facthunter]

You Can't modify a syllabus to WEED out these people. It wouldn't make any difference to people with an "attitude" problem. His partner KNEW this as well.  Nev

[turboplanner]

39 minutes ago, facthunter said:

There's a big difference between "FLYING" and the other activities you always relate to. ATSB only INVESTIGATE INCIDENTS/ACCIDENTS and are an INDEPENDENT BODY with the requisite Authority. So are the POLICE.   CASA and RAAus are NOT. Nev

ATSB investigate aircraft accidents withing CASA's registrating and licnsing system, and can investigate   a self administering sports aircraft organisation in certain circumstances. They are an independent body as you say.

 

CASA is a safety body, and ATSB do the investigations for them as outlined above.

 

The State Police investigate accidents  on the road, in workplaces and generally and provide a Brief to the State Coroner.

 

Self Administering Organisations, if they are smart, investigate their own accidents which go into their own databases to help reduce the accident rate, and also assist Police where called on with their specialist advice, for the Coroner's brief and the Coroner makes a finding on the deceased plus may make recommendations for a Sport/Industry etc.

 

A Self Administering Body is just that. It can sit there with its tongue in the sude of its mouth and just cop the lawsuits without doing any investigation at all. However it's much smarter to pass its own safety regulations, administer its one member standards and aircraft standards, investigate promptly when something goes wrong and take action to minimise any repeats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

They are an Involved organisation and therefore cannot investigate these matters. Exactly the same reason as CASA can't  They can be asked to provide information when the POLICE Investigate. The relevant STATE police.    Nev

[aro]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

CASA is a safety body, and ATSB do the investigations for them as outlined above.

ATSB don't do investigations for CASA. They are an independent body, and can investigate CASA if required.

 

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

A Self Administering Body is just that. It can sit there with its tongue in the sude of its mouth and just cop the lawsuits without doing any investigation at all. However it's much smarter to pass its own safety regulations, administer its one member standards and aircraft standards, investigate promptly when something goes wrong and take action to minimise any repeats.

If you're worried about lawsuits, the last thing you want to do is an investigation. Anything discovered in an investigation can and will be used as evidence against you (as they say). A problem documented is much worse than a problem you can plausibly deny knowledge of.

 

It appears that the lawyers have given that advice to RAA, which is why they stopped doing investigations.

[facthunter]

They NEVER could do investigations and the Coroner should have been aware of that.  It's an at ARMS length concept. Nev

[Love to fly]

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

They NEVER could do investigations and the Coroner should have been aware of that.  It's an at ARMS length concept. Nev

RAAUS used to do investigations. They stopped during the process for this crash. 

[aro]

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

They NEVER could do investigations and the Coroner should have been aware of that.

 

If you read the Coroners report, he is very aware of that and is specific about the problems. The report is very good, the Coroner seems to have an excellent understanding of the issues.

[facthunter]

I have read it. Nev

[aro]

7 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I have read it

So you would have seen where the Coroner says when the ATSB does not investigate an accident involving an RAAus registered aircraft, "RAAus has provided investigative assistance to state police forces and coroners". That seems to accurately describe the situation - state police forces and coroners investigate, RAAus provided assistance.

 

30 minutes ago, facthunter said:

NEVER could do investigations and the Coroner should have been aware of that

What was the Coroner unaware of?

[facthunter]

I'm not on trial here and not everyone reads into a document WHAT someone else might.. I've explained the Arms length concept applying.. No definite conclusion to some  accident can be sourced/allowed from a Participating party. It has NO value. Documents and records should be available and provided and any technical matter that might have affected the outcome such as performance icing conditions of the Aircraft and any pilot. WHY would I presume to state what the Coroner was unaware of? Nor will I speculate on it. . Give it a break anyhow. Opinions counter to yours have a right to be expressed. Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, aro said:

ATSB don't do investigations for CASA. They are an independent body, and can investigate CASA if required.

 

If you're worried about lawsuits, the last thing you want to do is an investigation. Anything discovered in an investigation can and will be used as evidence against you (as they say). A problem documented is much worse than a problem you can plausibly deny knowledge of.

Yes, all correct, BUT when you have lost about a dozen cases and the bill for the insurer is north of $15 million you start to see where your responsibilities lie and you work to benchmarks and make go/no go decisions and investigate everything and the evidence becomes reliable in Court, and surprise surprise the events and payouts come down sharply. So auditing can be your friend.

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I'm not on trial here and not everyone reads into a document WHAT someone else might.. I've explained the Arms length concept applying.. No definite conclusion to some  accident can be sourced/allowed from a Participating party. It has NO value. Documents and records should be available and provided and any technical matter that might have affected the outcome such as performance icing conditions of the Aircraft and any pilot. WHY would I presume to state what the Coroner was unaware of? Nor will I speculate on it. . Give it a break anyhow. Opinions counter to yours have a right to be expressed. Nev

Your still thinking in the Prescriptive era; a little like if you have an accident today under the prescriptive State Government system.

[facthunter]

At the end of the day It's about liability and whether CASA wants RAAus  (oranything similar)to exist into the future No sensible person would join some Body. that exposes them to an unspecified  potential liability that has no limit. Nev

[facthunter]

 I have NO idea why you would come to that conclusion. In any case you continue to insist that No problem exists. IT  DOES exist and could end most of the warbirds and the U'/Ls from flying as they wish to and HAVE done. . CASA have the say over the end game because they ARE the "AUTHORITY" .Nev

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

At the end of the day It's about liability and whether CASA wants RAAus  (oranything similar)to exist into the future No sensible person would join some Body. that exposes them to an unspecified  potential liability that has no limit. Nev

It doesn't say anything of the sort.

There's a beautiful colour photo of a SAFA trike flying over a coastline around social media; they aren't screwed up in a ball about the current SASAO structure, they're doing some good promotion.

[Roundsounds]

RAWas

[facthunter]

What does some Promo Picture Prove? You have been deaf to the problem forever.. Nev

[aro]

33 minutes ago, facthunter said:

At the end of the day It's about liability and whether CASA wants RAAus  (oranything similar)to exist into the future

It's partly out of CASA's control, unless CASA indemnify RAAus. If the insurance coverage is denied because of actions of RAAus or a claim exceeds the insurance coverage, or the insurers just decide they don't want to be in that market, RAAus ceases to exist and pilots and aircraft are grounded.

 

Personally, I think some in CASA would like to see the end of RAAus. The various simplified medicals and the ease of conversion of a pilot certificate to RPL undermine the reasons people join RAAus, and appear to be designed to attract people back to GA from RAAus.

 

If RAAus ceased to exist, would CASA just rewrite the existing exemptions with reference to CASA instead of RAAus?

[turboplanner]

43 minutes ago, aro said:

It's partly out of CASA's control, unless CASA indemnify RAAus. If the insurance coverage is denied because of actions of RAAus or a claim exceeds the insurance coverage, or the insurers just decide they don't want to be in that market, RAAus ceases to exist and pilots and aircraft are grounded.

 

Personally, I think some in CASA would like to see the end of RAAus. The various simplified medicals and the ease of conversion of a pilot certificate to RPL undermine the reasons people join RAAus, and appear to be designed to attract people back to GA from RAAus.

 

If RAAus ceased to exist, would CASA just rewrite the existing exemptions with reference to CASA instead of RAAus?

Take a look at the recreational aircraft operating in other SASAOs for that answer. There's nothing to stop an Incorporated Association setting up. Remember these are Self Administering.  

[aro]

3 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

There's nothing to stop an Incorporated Association setting up.

When you say nothing, you mean nothing other than approval by CASA (including rewriting all the exemptions to refer to the new organization) and obtaining insurance coverage.

 

If insurance companies decide they don't want to be in the recreational aviation business, that would be a big problem for new and existing organizations alike. Private aviation is small beer for insurance companies, if it becomes more trouble than it's worth they will just decline to write policies.

[turboplanner]

33 minutes ago, aro said:

When you say nothing, you mean nothing other than approval by CASA (including rewriting all the exemptions to refer to the new organization) and obtaining insurance coverage.

 

If insurance companies decide they don't want to be in the recreational aviation business, that would be a big problem for new and existing organizations alike. Private aviation is small beer for insurance companies, if it becomes more trouble than it's worth they will just decline to write policies.

Pretty much all of that, however remember that there are many risk sports that are very much smaller than flying. I did see a case where Insurance companies declined to insure a big industry, but there was quickly an agreement for the industry to get its act into gear and it all calmed down.  As we found earlier in the year, RA in total hasn't been a huge risk.

[FlyBoy1960]

Why havent the RAA issued a statement yet ?

 

Their employees have been referred to the DPP to be charged as criminally liable.  The whole thing stinks from start to finish!

[jackc]

1 hour ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

Why havent the RAA issued a statement yet ?

 

Their employees have been referred to the DPP to be charged as criminally liable.  The whole thing stinks from start to finish!

 ¡CEO told me last week, they will get around to it shortly.  
Snow jobbing a Coroner does not go well, when the relevant people get caught.