Small plane missing Victoria 18/09/22

[onetrack]

Training is supposed to not only give a person adequate skills for the operation of any powered machine, it should also weed out those who are entirely unsuited for the position of driving that machine.

 

And when you take to the air, the last factor becomes more important than in any other field of endeavour.

[Methusala]

1 minute ago, Love to fly said:

Training won't ensure all decisions are sound. But does give an educated basis to form an opinion.

Consensus both here and with the pilot on the Mt Beauty strip, was that the weather was terrible. The proverbial 'anyman' would judge that the trip in prospect was not safe or viable.

[facthunter]

An Instructor can't tell a Pilot He's not suited Mentally without risking a Lawyers intervention.  That person was on our Recflying .You could tell HE was a  RISK TAKER, especially IF you have training in Psychology, and /or Human factors.  Nev

[Love to fly]

5 minutes ago, Methusala said:

Consensus both here and with the pilot on the Mt Beauty strip, was that the weather was terrible. The proverbial 'anyman' would judge that the trip in prospect was not safe or viable.

Yes, but you, and they are basing your weather assessment on training & experience. I'm told by others at Mt Beauty that he took off during a brief lull between flights. A patch of blue was visible.  He didn't expect to crash. 

Edited yesterday at 12:24 AM by Love to fly

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, aro said:

That doesn't matter. He shouldn't have had a license. Otherwise, what are training and testing for? Why not make training optional?

 

There's a really big difference between weather at 20 knots vs weather at 120 knots. That's one thing that you would expect the training to focus on.

I agree but what I am saying is the weather was so bad the day of the accident blind Freddy could see it was too bad for flying. I can't believe you people think the pilot had no responsibility because of limited training. 

[Love to fly]

6 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I agree but what I am saying is the weather was so bad the day of the accident blind Freddy could see it was too bad for flying. I can't believe you people think the pilot had no responsibility because of limited training. 

Of course he has some responsibility.  But methinks RAAUS bears the brunt of it.. Lying to the Coroner, withholding information doesn't help their cause. 

Edited yesterday at 12:30 AM by Love to fly

[facthunter]

At 120Knots you can avoid it better. WHO fly's at 20 knots?  Nev

[onetrack]

Paragliders can, and regularly do, fly at 20kts.

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, Love to fly said:

Of course he has some responsibility.  But methinks RAAUS bears the brunt of it.. Lying to the Cir, withholding information doesn't help their cause. 

Yes the lying and missing paperwork is inexcusable.

But the accounts from the 2 locals stated very low cloud when he took off.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

whatever happened to the other group which was going to run parallel with the RA-Aus. It was all over this website for about a year and then just quietly disappeared after they kept missing their 'open for business' dates ?

They were good people but instead of just setting up for RA, they wanted to include other aircraft, like the bottom end of GA and that was problematic, because you'd have to run a parallel with CASA airctraft prescriptive and the same aircraft in their group self - administering, so not at all easy to handle, particularly in terms of responsibility for accidents.

[facthunter]

Even if your assumptions are correct, THAT is not causal to the event. Absolutely Nothing would have happened it the Plane had not crashed, unless some kind of checking of records had been done. by chance. I think the two experienced pilots having Military and Airline  are not the best to define an aeroplane. I would consider anything that is heavier than air, that obtains LIFT from movement through the AIR and  controllable  by an Occupant IS an Aeroplane.

  People with 10's of thousands of hours make similar POOR decisions occasionally, though Most High Hours pilot became High Hours Pilots by NOT making Bad decisions .Judgement rather than skill level. Human Factors 101. Nev

[Love to fly]

5 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Yes the lying and missing paperwork is inexcusable.

But the accounts from the 2 locals stated very low cloud when he took off.

Yes. And yes. But others at Mt Beauty say there was a patch of blue. He did not have the training to correctly assess the weather and clearly thought he could climb out. He flew for 40 minutes before crashing. And smsd his fiance shortly before crashing without indicating concern or distress. You don't know what you don't know. And once again I say, he didn't take off expecting to crash. Adequate training may have helped him make a better decision on the day. And unfortunately we will  never know whether training as per RAAUS's own framework would have made that difference. 

[onetrack]

Quote

I would consider anything that is heavier than air, that obtains LIFT from movement through the AIR and  controllable  by an Occupant IS an Aeroplane.

Of course, that's correct, and that is CASA's definition of an aeroplane. But you're missing the point that flying a weightshift paraglider at relatively low speeds, as against flying an engine powered, three-axis aircraft, requires substantially more training for the latter - especially in relation to weather understanding, and how it affects higher speed, powered aircraft, and pilot performance.

[facthunter]

There definitely NO IFR training in RAAus aircraft LEGALLY and no place for it to be signed off..SO no matter how much of the syllabus was done I contend the extra knowledge would be negligeable. Sign off on most things is by demonstrated proficiency as a deciding Principle. HOURS are still counted in Many areas.

  In such places I have recruited Locals to advise me of en route weather. In some cases EVEN go there (A view point) by Car.  No one Trains you to do that. It's a safety Mindset. SAME as I've NEVER flown through an active storm cell. Plenty of RPT do because they might burn more fuel and get asked WHY?   Nev

[facthunter]

 Well that was NOT the definition accepted by the Coroner who is not required to Know anything about aircraft. Jill Bailey? proposed that and was howled down.  Counteracted by the 2 "experienced , But NOT on U/L's" EXPERTs. . What would the AVERAGE Airline Pilot know (or CARE) about RAUS planes , unless they are medicalled out or close to retirement?  Nev

[Love to fly]

20 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 Well that was NOT the definition accepted by the Coroner who is not required to Know anything about aircraft. Jill Bailey? proposed that and was howled down.  Counteracted by the 2 "experienced , But NOT on U/L's" EXPERTs. . What would the AVERAGE Airline Pilot know (or CARE) about RAUS planes , unless they are medicalled out or close to retirement?  Nev

Coroner holds a Pilot License.  I know nothing about the the experts. But many airline pilots start out as GA and RAAus instructor.  One of our hangar neighbours owns and regularly flies a Jabiru along with his other aircraft. His day job is as an airline pilot.   He is nowhere near retirement. Its a fairly common scenario. 

Edited yesterday at 01:32 AM by Love to fly

[Garfly]

 

37 minutes ago, Methusala said:

Do you believe that only unqualified people make bad decisions? 

Good point.  And some weather decisions are a lot more straightforward than others.

Anyway, lest we're tempted to think it's mostly risk-taker types who get into strife; a cautionary tale from ATSB:

 

VFR into IMC involving a Piper PA-28, VH-FPS,

near Warrnambool, Victoria, on 25 February 2021

 

ao-2021-009-final-report.pdf

Safety summary

On 25 February 2021, a Piper Aircraft PA-28, registered VH-FPS, operated by Moorabbin Aviation Services, departed Warrnambool Airport for Moorabbin Airport, Victoria. The flight crew were conducting a training flight under the visual flight rules (VFR). There was an instructor, student pilot and a passenger on board. During the cruise, the weather deteriorated and the aircraft was returned to Warrnambool. As the aircraft approached Warrnambool, the visibility reduced and the instructor initiated a climb into cloud. They contacted air traffic control and received navigation assistance to an area free from cloud. The flight then proceeded to Moorabbin Airport where the aircraft landed safely.

 

 

The CASAbriefing video below actually analyses that incident but then goes on to offer useful tips on proper interpretation of NAIPS GAFs, TAFs etc.  The meteorologist urges pilots to talk to the relevant BOM aviation person whenever in doubt about a forecast (the phone number for the person handling your flight region is always at bottom left on the GAF).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

LTF Been through all that. GA instructor and 25 years with a Major Airline then AUF/ RAAus. instructor. 100% pass in PMI. CASA exam.

   Having an ATPL  day job would limit your recreational flying activity considerably, as you have to comply with Flight and duty time limitations.  Nev

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Look how long it has taken to get group G up, 2 or 3 years and still not done.

Group G is just one operation outside RA Perameters, and involves taking shortcuts in training and operations which currently have clear boundaries between Prescriptive and Self Adminiistering Operations. It's the splitting and potential liability issues that this move relates to. Personally I don't think its='s feasible without RA training coming up to the level of GA in that area. 

[facthunter]

Weather near Warrnambool can be  very changeable. Its Coastal with rising ground  North of it.  Wollongong is a BIT similar, but to the West   Nev

[Methusala]

I think that the great danger lies in that one may convince oneself that, having done all required training, you become safe from making an erroneous decision. This is where Nev's call regarding human factors gains legs.

[facthunter]

I was very active when the first Courses were being arranged and I was not in favour of how it was introduced and recall discussing it intensely with a group of Instructors at Fyshwick (CBR) who tended to be in agreement with Me. I Knew there was Pushback in the Ranks. However It was proceeded with and  a Fairly ordinary result ensued. I also don't recall ANY follow up or consolidation. At the time this was a CASA Initiative  and strongly supported by Insurance companies. Perhaps to not have followed Up is a serious Omission IF we wish to be realistic about Causal factors.  I LOT of Pilots think it's BS, and THEY don't need it, BUT those are the ones who need it Most.. I've done about 3courses. Not sure IF CASA

pushes it any more.  Nev

[jackc]

Knowing what I know now…….i should have started in Aviation, by going to the U.S. for a couple of months holiday,  Bought an FAA FAR Part 103 aircraft built and  got some training,

logged hours flying the wings off it. Shipped it back to Australia and reassembled it and just flown here, NO CASA, NO RAA, who are they?  Do like many in Western Qld now..

But I would buy any Aviation Training Books, I could lay my hands on, study everything I could to gain knowledge etc. 

Never need an MARAP to do ANYTHING 👍

[facthunter]

At the beginning of all this the CASA assured all that at no time would the requirements applicable to RAAus be more onerous than  under GA rules. Any non conforming to ICAO still has the be by exemptions though.. This is one example of  where  extra liability crops up. CASA agreed to pay/compensate  RAAus for work they would have had to do. How That works Out. I do not know but it's likely to be a lopsided argument, if push comes to shove.  Nev

[turboplanner]

17 minutes ago, jackc said:

Knowing what I know now…….i should have started in Aviation, by going to the U.S. for a couple of months holiday,  Bought an FAA FAR Part 103 aircraft built and  got some training,

logged hours flying the wings off it. Shipped it back to Australia and reassembled it and just flown here, NO CASA, NO RAA, who are they?  Do like many in Western Qld now..

But I would buy any Aviation Training Books, I could lay my hands on, study everything I could to gain knowledge etc. 

Never need an MARAP to do ANYTHING 👍

Just at the moment the last thing RA needs is someone rabbiting on about breaking the rules. I seem to remember you telling us you were going to doze an airstrip on your Western Queensland proprty then it was under the Rockhampton airport space.