Small plane missing Victoria 18/09/22

[Love to fly]

3 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Would be good to know how many touch and goes he did under instruction and the weather as that would have displayed his ability to the instructor pre first solo.

 

Also; his flying experience in other types and xc experience in them.

 

I haven't read that detail anywhere.

He had one hour in a 172 over 20 years prior. And over 200 hours in UNpowered paragliders. I've no idea how many touch n gos etc,or how recent the unpowered paraglider experience was. 

[BrendAn]

23 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Would be good to know how many touch and goes he did under instruction and the weather as that would have displayed his ability to the instructor pre first solo.

 

Also; his flying experience in other types and xc experience in them.

 

I haven't read that detail anywhere.

I have only read that he had a lot of experience in PPG ..  when I spoke to the instructor involved about doing some training he told me he only flew in good weather. He was part time and not interested in bouncing around any more, so I would assume the training with Matt was only on good days.

Edited February 15 by BrendAn

[Blueadventures]

11 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I have only read that he had a lot of experience in PPG ..  when I spoke to the instructor involved about doing some training he told me he only flew in good weather. He was part time and not interested in bouncing around any more, so I would assume the training with Matt was only on good days.

Thanks , that would help explain his fast learnings to solo; hope the Coroner heard this sort of info; they can only decide on what they hear in the court and what they read up about.

[Blueadventures]

30 minutes ago, Love to fly said:

He had one hour in a 172 over 20 years prior. And over 200 hours in UNpowered paragliders. I've no idea how many touch n gos etc,or how recent the unpowered paraglider experience was. 

That adds to the persons experience with flight in addition to the recent training he did.  para glider flight time would have instilled an appreciation of weather; hope the Coroner heard such.

[BrendAn]

I wonder what is going to happen to raaus after this. One person I know is concerned about having a job after casa decides what to do .

There is even talk of something like part 103 coming in. Single seaters fly with full responsibility for themselves un licenesed.  

Would that mean 2 seat go under casa  ?.

[Love to fly]

18 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

That adds to the persons experience with flight in addition to the recent training he did.  para glider flight time would have instilled an appreciation of weather; hope the Coroner heard such.

He did. He mentioned it in his report. 

[Love to fly]

14 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I wonder what is going to happen to raaus after this. One person I know is concerned about having a job after casa decides what to do .

There is even talk of something like part 103 coming in. Single seaters fly with full responsibility for themselves un licenesed.  

Would that mean 2 seat go under casa  ?.

Given the referrals made to the DPP interesting times are ahead. 

[Methusala]

1 hour ago, Love to fly said:

Add in the behaviour of some and the Coroner's referrals to the DPP and this becomes something that may effect all of us. 

I believe that a recommendation to a DPP is fatuous and overreach. Obviously, events like this affect us all. That is to bring reflection back to our responsibilities as pilots. Mention of Maurice Blackburn, well known 'ambulance chasers' carries no weight in this discussion - free publicity for their commercial ops. Similarly, the departure of M Moncks to CASA, well, who ever saw such a thing on the horizon. These are my opinions and, are those of a participant, no particular expertise. Don

[facthunter]

This was entirely weather related. All that other stuff is peripheral speculation.. Nev

[FlyBoy1960]

15 minutes ago, Love to fly said:

He did. He mentioned it in his report. 

 

So where is this report ?  all i have seen is the ABC 'review'  seems the report is not available publically yet.

[Methusala]

20 minutes ago, Methusala said:

I believe that a recommendation to a DPP is fatuous and overreach.

In my opinion, coroners seem to (sometimes) suffer 'deprivation of relevance syndrome'. That is, because they only make recommendations, they over emphasise their conclusions. Must be viewed in such light.

 

16 minutes ago, facthunter said:

This was entirely weather related. All that other stuff is peripheral speculation.. Nev

I respectfully disagree. This event is ALL about individuals making erroneous decisions.

[Love to fly]

21 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

 

So where is this report ?  all i have seen is the ABC 'review'  seems the report is not available publically yet.

Written report not yet online. But it was livestreamed when he delivered it on Friday. 

[Love to fly]

36 minutes ago, Methusala said:

I believe that a recommendation to a DPP is fatuous and overreach. Obviously, events like this affect us all. That is to bring reflection back to our responsibilities as pilots. Mention of Maurice Blackburn, well known 'ambulance chasers' carries no weight in this discussion - free publicity for their commercial ops. Similarly, the departure of M Moncks to CASA, well, who ever saw such a thing on the horizon. These are my opinions and, are those of a participant, no particular expertise. Don

Think you've mixed people? Matt Boutell went to casa. No longer there I'm told.  And overreach? Hmm deliberately withholding relevant information from a Coroner is okay? 

[BrendAn]

35 minutes ago, facthunter said:

This was entirely weather related. All that other stuff is peripheral speculation.. Nev

not at all.  its  poor   decision related.

Edited February 16 by BrendAn

[facthunter]

In  relation to the WEATHER. EVEN some HIGH hours Pilots are guilty of that. It's a HUMAN FACTORS issue.  Nev

[BrendAn]

12 minutes ago, facthunter said:

In  relation to the WEATHER. EVEN some HIGH hours Pilots are guilty of that. It's a HUMAN FACTORS issue.  Nev

yes.  i would agree with you if he ran into bad weather but to take off in it is a bad idea. even myself having very little experience can still figure that out.

[Methusala]

1 hour ago, Love to fly said:

Think you've mixed people? Matt Boutell went to casa. No longer there I'm told.  And overreach? Hmm deliberately withholding relevant information from a Coroner is okay? 

Be interesting to see response from DPP.

[facthunter]

You are not looking at the bigger picture. HE did what no instructor could have reasonably anticipated. I've taken off in conditions where  the conditions are marginal. It's done all the time in RPT.. HE got into trouble later. IF it had been a better day we would not be talking about it..  Nev

[facthunter]

The above post is in response to Brendon. Nev

[Methusala]

50 minutes ago, facthunter said:

In  relation to the WEATHER. EVEN some HIGH hours Pilots are guilty of that. It's a HUMAN FACTORS issue.  Nev

I think you win post of the day. Exactly what HF is all about. However the weather was terrible from the get go, no RPT aids on a basic Jabiru.

[jackc]

49 minutes ago, Methusala said:

Be interesting to see response from DPP.

Mr Boutell, will be dragged in as It happened under his watch? 

[Love to fly]

23 minutes ago, Methusala said:

I think you win post of the day. Exactly what HF is all about. However the weather was terrible from the get go, no RPT aids on a basic Jabiru.

Pilot, local to Mt Beauty, has said he left during a lull in the weather. Blue sky was visible. Guessing he thought he could get out safely. 

[facthunter]

I've flown plenty of Jabirus and if you only fly in good weather, you are not trained. I'm happy to fly on a basic panel where it's appropriate. and looking what's going on Outside. to fly a squared circuit. (Allow for drift).  Nev

[kgwilson]

200 hours in a paraglider, an hour in a c172 many years earlier & only 4 flights in a Jabiru in no way provides anywhere near enough experience to make cross country navigation flights and especially in poor conditions and mountainous terrain.

 

You cannot fly a paraglider in strong wind conditions, they will only fly backwards and you need lift either from thermals or rising air moving over sloped ground like ridge lift. Modern paragliders are probably faster that the one I flew back in the 90s but they were developed from ram air parachutes with many of the same problems such as no rigid structure. I believe the latest competition paragliders have an L/D of up to 13:1 which is pretty impressive given most recreational aircraft are around 9-10:1. The difference of course is airspeed at best glide which is typically around 20knots compared to 70 knots for a J230.

 

So he had only flown paragliders in good weather which given their performance envelope is a wise decision. It may be that the large difference to the J230 clouded his judgement to overestimate his and the aircrafts capabilities. Failing to heed warnings from experienced pilots on the day displayed poor judgement or overconfidence and probably a bit of both.

[BurnieM]

We are still back to how did his instructor recommend him for cross country endorsement and how did RAAus approve him with minimal training and no prior cross country experience.

 

Yes, this was poor decision making from the pilot.

We also have a systematic failure. At least I hope it is a systematic failure as the alternative is far worse.