Winging it Down the Castlereagh

[Thruster88]

All four seat aircraft with about 3 people per aircraft.  

[old man emu]

So $100 would be fair for RAAus aircraft, and cheap for anything bigger?

 

I'm hoping to get some flying schools to fill a 4-seater so that more students get some nav practice. It's perfectly within the scope of the event for a crew of four (instructor + 3) to land along the way and swap pilots. All they would have to do is account for the time taken to land, swap seats and flock off. In fact, I might include a prize for the best pilot swap crew. Anything to make the event more fun and valuable to the contestants.

[facthunter]

About $500 for an Airbus. Nev

[old man emu]

In order to cut out any need for en-route refuelling, I've redesigned the route, and calculated some indicative times for point-to-point flights. Now it is down to about 2 hours' flight time and about 140 NM. Now the route really does get you Winging down the Castlereagh. Hopefully I can arrange a supply of Mogas at Tooraweenah.

 

It starts at Tooraweenah and goes in a clockwise direction. That will bring aircraft back to Tooraweenah so they overfly and descend to join on the crosswind leg. I think that would be safer than the earlier route which had the potential for straight-in approaches.

 

Indicative Times Route 2.docx

[facthunter]

Give everyone who does it a decent certificate to remember it by. Nev

[turboplanner]

On 26/09/2022 at 6:39 PM, Thruster88 said:

The organisers of the event should not need insurance if it is spelled out to all the participating  PILOTS IN COMMAND, that they must operate their aircraft in accordance with casa regulations while participating.  

Problem is they don't.

I think this approach might be back to front.

The normal procedure is for the promoter to take out a PL policy for the event, to cover risks.

Then people can show up on the day from anywhere in Australia.

If any attendee gets hurt they are covered that way.

 

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

The normal procedure is for the promoter to take out a PL policy for the event, to cover risks

That's about it. Aircraft owners will have to insure their property against causing injury through its operation, and the organisers will have to insure against the usual trips and falls. Do the ladies of the CWA insure against their cakes causing toe-and-mane poisoning?

 

The whole idea might go to pot if CASA says, "No". I contacted them this morning and they said to send what information I have and they will see if the event can go ahead. Can you all please give a donation of Luck, 'cause I reckon I'll need lots to get past CASA? They even want to charge a fee for assessing the application!

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

That's about it. Aircraft owners will have to insure their property against causing injury through its operation, and the organisers will have to insure against the usual trips and falls. Do the ladies of the CWA insure against their cakes causing toe-and-mane poisoning?

 

The whole idea might go to pot if CASA says, "No". I contacted them this morning and they said to send what information I have and they will see if the event can go ahead. Can you all please give a donation of Luck, 'cause I reckon I'll need lots to get past CASA? They even want to charge a fee for assessing the application!

Just to be clear, I said Promoter, which also means the Organiser.

Attendees/competitors/visitors don't take out event PL Insurance, because its the Promoter/Organiser/Owner who has the duty of care and will be sued if anyone is injured in the event.

In the mid 1980s our promoters used to take out a policy for $10 million for $1,000 per meeting. 

We were sued for everything from a competitor having his fingers burnt off, a child injured by a lump of flying clay, a spectator stepping out of a toilet in the car park and being hit by a car, a catch fence cable breaking, a car registered by us participating in the Adelaide Grand Prix promtional events at a shopping centre cleaning up shoppers, and a few dozen other things.

If you want to get current information I would recommend contacting a Public Liability Insurance Broker, explaining how you've set this event up; location, numbers of visitors, activities, safety controls, any rules, similar events, and the Broker should be able to get back to you fairly quickly with a quote if there are other examples with a history of holding events.

[old man emu]

Like I said. This would be a fun event to have, until the bloody ambulance chasers got wind of it. You should see the hoops I have to jump through simply to submit an application to CASA to organise the event.

 

I'm sorry to say it, but I've got a few years of life to enjoy and I don't think dealing with vast tomes of rules, regulations and what-ifs? is going to add to that enjoyment.

 

Maybe the best thing to do is say, "here's my phone number. If you want to stop for break at my local aerodrome, give me a call and I'll arrange ground transport"

[facthunter]

Sadly you may be right.  It's not the first time such a thing has been done but it's your call. Who needs a pile of angst. See if you can get  some support  from CASA or RAAus.  Nev

[old man emu]

Support from CASA ??? You velly funny man.

 

CASA say this https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2022-06/interim-air-display-administration-procedures-manual.pdf.

 

It's got more hoops than an ante bellum Southern ballroom.

 

[turboplanner]

10 hours ago, old man emu said:

I'm sorry to say it, but I've got a few years of life to enjoy and I don't think dealing with vast tomes of rules, regulations and what-ifs? is going to add to that enjoyment.

 

In the old days, what would you do if the driver said, "My mother in law put my licence in the wash" or "I'm too busy to get a roadworthy" etc.

It's the same after an accident. Trips and falls are part of PL, but you're not looking at the big picture where you saw them all of and thre were no landmarks in the Piliiga, or you parked one under a gum tree and a branch fell down and permanently injured him *

 

CASA and RAA aren't going to assume libility; that's not what either do.

 

If 30 PIC dropped into your airfield at one, then took off and got lost/followed an incorrectly marked map, hit powerlines etc. they are covered by their own PL Insurance.

 

You organise exactly the same event, and that happens, you are liable, even when you provide the transport to town, you are liable. *

 

*Ballerini v Shire of Berrigan where a person dived into the Murray River, hit a snag and won a case because, although the Murray River had been there for thousands of years, and snags regularly shifted it was the shire fencing the deep pool and advertising it (taking "ownership") that produced the duty of care requiring them to keep the pool safe."

 

It's one phone call to one PL Broker, and you'll know the cost of cover. My 35 clubs and associations often used to phone up for cover the night before a race meeting it was that easy.

 

[Old Koreelah]

On 19/09/2022 at 10:59 PM, pmccarthy said:

I suggest sending the fastest first so there is no danger of slow planes getting rear-ended.

Another aspect is engines overheating  while takeoffs are delayed- a big issue where small batches of planes are marshalled to backtrack before TO. When it’s happened to me, all I needed was enough space to pull out of the line for a cool-off period.

[old man emu]

10 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Another aspect is engines overheating  while takeoffs are delayed- a big issue where small batches of planes are marshalled to backtrack before TO. When it’s happened to me, all I needed was enough space to pull out of the line for a cool-off period.

Thanks for that comment. I will have to take that into consideration when organising departures. I won't be doing all the planning myself. I'll  have CFI's to give input, and people who have competed in similar events to give me a debrief. Don't forget I've just started this planning process so I don't have all the answered. Heck! I don't think I know all the problems.

 

Here's one to mull over: The event is open to persons with a current permission to fly from a licensing authority . CASA says 15 years old to fly solo on a student licence and 16 for what I'll call a go anywhere pilot's licence. CASA does not specify an age for a commercial licence. It is usual for race rules to require that an entrant who is under 18 years of age to provide written permission from a parent or guardian to participate in the event.  Should the rules exclude a 17 years 6 months old licensed pilot without the permission to participate? The kid can legally drive to the airport without permission. I'm the one who is making the rules for the event.

 

The reason I ask is that I want to invite the Scouts Aviation Activities to participate. There could be other Young People too who are not in that mob.

[old man emu]

Questions! Questions! Questions!

The more I delve into planning this thing, the more questions pop up. This one is about the timing of aeroplane dispatch at the start of the event. Here is my idea of the distribution of areas of activity on the aerodrome:

I'm expecting that in April, we will be using runway 04. What I was planning was that competitors would gather in the marshalling area according to a pre-determined departure order. The first off would taxi down to the 04 Run-up bay. As soon as they entered the bay and began their run up, the Marshall would release No 2 to begin taxying towards the run-up bay while No 1 did the run-up. By the time No 2 reached the run-up bay, No 1 would be lined up on 04 for dispatch. No 2 enters the bay and No 3 is released. The Marshalls at each end of the taxiway would communicate by flag. No need for communication by radio with competitors.

 

From the marshalling area to the run-up bay is 800 metres. At a walking speed of 5 mph (130 metres/minute) that distance would be covered in 6 minutes.

 

The question is: What is the average time for to complete run-up checks?

 

 

 

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Six minutes is too long to be taxying in April.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

Six minutes is too long to be taxying in April.

I was trying to save arguments about taxying too fast. I calculated it would take six minutes to taxi from the marshalling area to the run-up bay at a walking speed of 5 mph.

 

Your answers to my question on how long it takes to do a run up, will determine the interval between one aircraft entering the run-up bay and the release of the next one from the marshalling area. It might take six minutes to taxi the distance, but if the run-up takes 3 minutes I can have two aircraft on the taxiway at the same time - one about halfway and one about to leave the marshalling area. I'd like to be able to dispatch the competitors as quickly as possible, but I have to be careful of separation after take-off. Also that taxiway will be unsealed. I hope to get it rolled flat, but pilots would still have to be careful.

 

In April you are looking at a late morning air temp of just under 20C.

[RossK]

Just checked my Avplan tracks, they show off blocks time and take off time.

On average, I take 7.5 mins from off blocks to take off.

From my tie downs to the run up area is 730m and it's another 50m to enter the runway.

Lilydale is grass, typical taxying speed is 6-8knts ground speed - 10kts is too fast for the uneveness of the surface.

Doing the math, it takes 3.6mins to taxi to the run up bay. Allow 3mins for run ups, and then 1 min to enter and take off.

Hope that helps in your planning.

Edited October 3, 2022 by RossK

[old man emu]

6 hours ago, RossK said:

Just checked my Avplan tracks,

Thank you for doing that. I hope I can get some more replies so I can get an average.

[old man emu]

I spoke to the blokes in an Airservices control tower and although they would not say anything that could be used against them, they provided me with an indication of acceptable separation distances between aircraft taking off one after the other.

 

PROVISION OF FUEL

This is a headache. My Avgas supplier won't go within a bull's roar of Mogas. You blokes scared me off by raising the liability risk of my going to a petrol station to get a lot of fuel then selling it on to those who want it.

 

My only option is to say that running a tankful of Avgas in an engine that runs Mogas is not going to destroy the engine. Besides by April, the price of Mogas 98 which has an excise on it, might nearly be the same as Avgas which doesn't have the excise.

[spacesailor]

Whatever the price of ' mogas ' the ' avgas ' will always be higher .

Filtration is going to put the $ up every time .

Then in 2035 ' mogas ' will be sold only to " enthusiasts " with a combustion engine licence. 

I,ll just have to see if my " mobility scooter " will last that long .

Spacesailor

Edited October 18, 2022 by spacesailor
More added

[facthunter]

Tune it to run on ethanol. Nev

[pmccarthy]

43 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Tune it to run on ethanol. Nev

With nitrous injection.

[spacesailor]

That ' electric mobility scooter ' Is Not allowed to tow a trailered generaor.

By ' Bureaucratic Law ' .

Now That shows , the " STUPIDITY OF THE LAW " .

WE can rideon the ' foot path ' But those power poles stop even ' push chairs / Invalides ' wheelchairs .cannot get past

those poles ,& have to risk ' life ' going onto the road . ( the risk of tipping over when getting down the kerb )..

Our local ' rail  bridge ' has a pole centrally placed in the one & only walkway.

SO

The motorist are plesently irate whenever a " silly old bugger "  needs to get to the other side.

Spacesailor

[Bruce Tuncks]

Gosh spacy, I'm sorry. There are similar things around Adelaide but they are far enough apart to not stop a normal mobility scooter. BUT there is a nasty old woman who shops in Elizabeth who has a GIANT of a scooter and you can't get past her in a supermarket aisle. I wish they would put up some posts to keep her out.

When I looked into it, there is no legal width limit on a mobility scooter, but the ones my mates use are all ( even the fast ones ) narrow enough to get through a normal door etc.