Changing Tyre Size On 24 Reg Jabiru 230?

[jackc]

Above subject says it all 🙂. Has anyone done an increase in tyre size for this model?  Approvals possible and process needed?  Or are you restricted to the stock donuts? 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I am far from an expert, but I would start by asking the manufacturer. It might be that they approve bigger wheels. It might also be that they tested with bigger wheels and can tell you what happened.  

[RFguy]

Putting aside what the mfr says you can and cannot do, and they are not changes to the aerodynamics of the aircraft (changes to lift or control surfaces) , I would just see what your insurance says. If you carry insurance, and there is a claim, you want to know whether their claim payout might hinge on whether a modification was implicated or contributed to the claim.

 

If I put big tyres on, and say, I lost a prop blade mid air, and landing in a paddock busting the wing, the tyres are not the cause of the accident, but depending on the insurance , any modification even if it was nothing to do with the claim could void the insurance (or not) . Sure you could argue it but insurance companies have deep pockets for lawyers...

 

If you dont carry airframe insurance, that puts a different light on the question. There is also the 3rd party etc RAAaus insurance, and maybe any medical costs to pay out for a passenger... that has to be weighed up.

 

Some insurance will permit a list of modifications. But for LSA, given the MFR has the last word, I am not sure where that lands it (no pun intended), IE operated contrary to the MFR directives doesnt sound too good in court.

Edited September 30, 2022 by RFguy

[Bruce Tuncks]

Rf guy, I once read that in the US, somebody lost his insurance because he had tried out a carby mod. It was not even on the plane when the crash occurred.

When I posted the story here, I was told that in Australia, that would not happen.

 

[440032]

Perhaps clarify for the readers, you're only talking about a different tyre, nothing else?

 

[old man emu]

6 hours ago, 440032 said:

Perhaps clarify for the readers, you're only talking about a different tyre, nothing else?

 

I read it s putting on Tundra tyres.

[jackc]

No, not tundra but a slightly larger size for more suited to grass/dirt strips.  

[facthunter]

If it's OK for the rim size it shouldn't be any big deal.    Nev

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Rf guy, I once read that in the US, somebody lost his insurance because he had tried out a carby mod. It was not even on the plane when the crash occurred.

When I posted the story here, I was told that in Australia, that would not happen.

 

Yeah, but your stories put you in the running to beat "Misleading Cases" by A. P. Herbert. This thread has seamlessly drifted from what is permissible to airframe insurance to PL insurance.

 

It's a 24 series reg so what is allowed is what is on the aircraft as it was built. You could talk to the manufacturer to see if any variants have been designed tested and approved.

 

Airframe Insurance is usually based on the declaration you make in your Application; we keep hearing about these deep pockets, but if you change the specification on a 24 aircraft, the judge is going to 1. Check the rules to see hat can be changed 2. Find Zero 3. Back the Insurance Company, and most of the time it wouldn't even get that far; just an Underwriters assessment telling you to get lost; then you are the one calling on deep pockets if you want to challenge it.

 

I'm not a lawyer so I can't give you any detailed answer if someone is injured when an aircraft fitted with Tundra tyres which spins in from 50 feet due to pilot error. From my experience the law understands things like that can happen, provided it is explained in simple and clear and sequential terms. Your lawyer would explain the Tundra tyre played no part and why. On the other hand if the aircraft bounced on landing and someone was injured the Tundra tyre is central to the  result so you may have some pain.

 

"Somebody lost his insurance because he had tried out a carby mod" [in June]. He then has no insurance on the aircraft. 

He then crashes his uninsured aircraft [in July].

Answer for the above scenario: Why would he expect to be covered?  He could have removed the unauthorised carby, reinsured his aircraft and he would have then had a policy to cover the crash.

 

If its Tundra tyres in question, and not needing to fit an alternative brand/ply because the certified tyres are no longer available, the question is why?

I understand its fashionable, no problems there, but you immediately lose a large percentage of brake efficiency due to the bigger OD vs no change in the brake caliper radius. You get the bounce you didn't have before so your landing skills need to be higher, and the rolling resistance may not be that much different because the Tundra tyre sags on its axle compared to a runway tyre. 

 

[Mewp]

AS a 24 rego you will need approval from the manufacturer and a LOA or go experimental.

[skippydiesel]

I recon Nev is on the money - if the tyre fits the manufacturers rims, have sufficient clearance to structures and they meet the same standard as the OM ones you wont have a problem.  Tyres are much like any other consumable - as long as your selection meets/exceeds specifications you should be right.

[BrendAn]

22 hours ago, jackc said:

Above subject says it all 🙂. Has anyone done an increase in tyre size for this model?  Approvals possible and process needed?  Or are you restricted to the stock donuts? 

Are you driving a jab now jack. Have you still got the aeropup

[jackc]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

Are you driving a jab now jack. Have you still got the aeropup

One is on my shopping list for a 24 reg aircraft,  I might try for an STC from Jabiru, that I won’t get.  Insurance?  Never carry passengers not fly over populated area, IF I crash then will probably die and insurance would find a way to not pay out to my estate. Insurance PDSs tell me that insurance is virtually worthless, except third party for cars.  

Yes, Aeropup is in pieces again, full rewire and install Becker radio and a few other goodies.  I have to instal the new crate motor in Thruster, have started to build hangar……lots of steel and welding, gave up on a rip off kit hangar as can build for  1/3 of their price.

Sick of not flying, so need a fly away no more to pay aircraft as standing on milk crates ain’t cutting it……not high enough off the ground 🙂 

[Blueadventures]

4 minutes ago, jackc said:

One is on my shopping list for a 24 reg aircraft,  I might try for an STC from Jabiru, that I won’t get.  Insurance?  Never carry passengers not fly over populated area, IF I crash then will probably die and insurance would find a way to not pay out to my estate. Insurance PDSs tell me that insurance is virtually worthless, except third party for cars.  

Yes, Aeropup is in pieces again, full rewire and install Becker radio and a few other goodies.  I have to instal the new crate motor in Thruster, have started to build hangar……lots of steel and welding, gave up on a rip off kit hangar as can build for  1/3 of their price.

Sick of not flying, so need a fly away no more to pay aircraft as standing on milk crates ain’t cutting it……not high enough off the ground 🙂 

Jack you would not go wrong with a good X-air as an hour builder, they have a Rotax 2 stroke 582 and if needed you could fit your new 582.  Be good around your area and can land anywhere.  I had fun flying one.

[jackc]

600kg is my lard arse problem, I had a Bushcat lined up but MTOW killed it 😞 

[BrendAn]

4 minutes ago, jackc said:

600kg is my lard arse problem, I had a Bushcat lined up but MTOW killed it 😞 

Your thruster will carry more than a jabiru.  I haven't been in one but was told that wing will carry a big load.

Edited October 1, 2022 by BrendAn

[jackc]

11 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Your thruster will carry more than a jabiru.  I haven't been in one but was told that wing will carry a big load.

Well, not so……I need to lose 20kg or so down from 105, Winter is a bad time of year for me 😞  Thruster, with 2 POB me as one of them, full noise 5600 RPM ideal day and…..not able to leave the ground 😞. So, I will fly it as a solo when able.  In the mean time I need a training aircraft and I have flown. J-230 and it did the job OK.   Can’t get a new J-230 until 2024 so that ruled out a new one. Planes are hard to find, even new ones. 

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

600kg is my lard arse problem, I had a Bushcat lined up but MTOW killed it 😞 

What was issue with Bushcat, webb au says empty weight 320kg and MTOW 560 kg.  AS a comparison my Nynja is MTOW 540kg and empty 299kg seats max 120kg each.  What is Bushcat's seat max weight.   If you haven't flown in an Xair try and contact someone nearby that has one and line up a fly.   My first aircraft was a Skyfox taildragger and having flown the Xair wished I bought an Xair as a fist aircraft.  I find the Nynja great so would recommend them or the Swift version if there were any for sale.  Cheers

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Blueadventures

[BrendAn]

52 minutes ago, jackc said:

Well, not so……I need to lose 20kg or so down from 105, Winter is a bad time of year for me 😞  Thruster, with 2 POB me as one of them, full noise 5600 RPM ideal day and…..not able to leave the ground 😞. So, I will fly it as a solo when able.  In the mean time I need a training aircraft and I have flown. J-230 and it did the job OK.   Can’t get a new J-230 until 2024 so that ruled out a new one. Planes are hard to find, even new ones. 

 I have been training in a j230. Great fun . Climbs like a rocket.

[Blueadventures]

3 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

 I have been training in a j230. Great fun . Climbs like a rocket.

I'd like to see a different wing being available so the takeoff run would be shorter and the landing slower and shorter.  I emailed them 8 years ago and their areo engineer Dan M replied not in their plans.  Such a wing would cruise slower but have better off airfield operations performance.  The empty weight is heavy so limited with fuel, crew and cargo weight although plenty of room.

[jackc]

1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

What was issue with Bushcat, webb au says empty weight 320kg and MTOW 560 kg.  AS a comparison my Nynja is MTOW 540kg and empty 299kg seats max 120kg each.  What is Bushcat's seat max weight.   If you haven't flown in an Xair try and contact someone nearby that has one and line up a fly.   My first aircraft was a Skyfox taildragger and having flown the Xair wished I bought an Xair as a fist aircraft.  I find the Nynja great so would recommend them or the Swift version if there were any for sale.  Cheers

 

 

Mike, worked out with full fuel and no baggage 2 POBit was over MTOW, there is also confusion…..one I looked at was 600 MTOW on the plate, the web site in AU that is not the case yet and the South African site says MTOW 600 for some countries but Australia not listed.  The one I wanted in Victoria was a beautiful aircraft and near new but I consulted others on the MTOW and confusion reigned.  I had to make a decision in a hurry as others had money burning a hole in their wallet etc.

I would like a Foxbat, which I should have bought new……right from the start, but now can’t get them and support will be questionable in the future. 

[pmccarthy]

Foxbat support is not in doubt, unless Putin takes over all of Ukraine. They are still shipping aircraft.

[jackc]

I would not be prepared to take the risk, given current circumstances.  The maintenance of 24 reg aircraft relies on factory certified parts, thanks to Australia’s regulators rulings.   Supply problems generally are only going to make things worse, hence my Jabiru thoughts.  But even they have a parts  problem with older engines, You will wait well over 12 months for a new Gen 4 engine, and some critical  parts are unobtainium for Gen 3 motors?  

I can see a future where people will do what they need to do to keep aircraft flying, illegal or not…….necessity will be the mother of invention.  With todays good machining technology, anything can be easily made to solve most problems.  The Wright Bros never relied on factory certified parts 🙂 

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, jackc said:

I would not be prepared to take the risk, given current circumstances.  The maintenance of 24 reg aircraft relies on factory certified parts, thanks to Australia’s regulators rulings.   Supply problems generally are only going to make things worse, hence my Jabiru thoughts.  But even they have a parts  problem with older engines, You will wait well over 12 months for a new Gen 4 engine, and some critical  parts are unobtainium for Gen 3 motors?  

I can see a future where people will do what they need to do to keep aircraft flying, illegal or not…….necessity will be the mother of invention.  With todays good machining technology, anything can be easily made to solve most problems.  The Wright Bros never relied on factory certified parts 🙂 

For a comparison and background to your observations, it would be worthwhile to drop in to a few GA faciities at some time and see how the LAMES work under prescriptive legislation. 24 reg might not look so bad after all.

[old man emu]

18 minutes ago, jackc said:

The maintenance of 24 reg aircraft relies on factory certified parts, thanks to Australia’s regulators rulings.  

There appears to be several car engines available that have been set up for operation in aircraft. OEM spare parts for them are available from the car people. How does that work under the Regs?