NSW motor vehicle licence at 75year old

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I would like to see simulators used in driving tests. There are retarded young people on the roads who constitute as big if not more of a risk than the silly old buggers.

If you cared about safety, you would want these removed as well if not first.

There is truth in thinking that people are different when they rock up for a test, which is why I want to have high-school physics questions in the road license tests too.

how many times a year do we see old people crashing through buildings because they forgot which pedal was the brake.

they are dangerous on busy roads because they thinks its fine to do 80 kmh on the freeway or highway. its got worse up our way since they, put those stupid barriers in the middle of the road. very frustrating when your stuck behind an old granny doing 70 to 80 kmh. then they floor it at the overtaking lanes. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, I was stuck behind a silly old bugger and after i overtook him I was told off by a cop!

Anyway, for OME's info, I would make sure that kids could calculate, for example, how centrifugal force combined with road camber could make your rav4 "unexpectedly"  roll. This actually happened to a couple of youngsters we know well. ( They are both high-school teachers now, but I personally regard them as uneducated ).

I would actually ( and semi-secretly )  be using the stuff to keep morons off the road... for every old fart who presses the wrong pedal, there is a silly youngster who crashes at 200kph. I reckon they could both be kept off the road ( actually, be kept from having a license which is not quite  the same thing, but it is the best we can hope for ).  The morons would start to show an amazing interest in physics. I don't object to you adding stuff like biology but that is secondary to me.

[Bruce Tuncks]

On re-reading OME's post, I think he is trying to say that everybody should be allowed to drive. Even if you are " non-mathematically inclined"...  I don't  agree.

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

On re-reading OME's post, I think he is trying to say that everybody should be allowed to drive. Even if you are " non-mathematically inclined"...  I don't  agree.

You think only highly educated people should drive. That means I would be out of business because my driver's and I would probably fail your tests.  I don't know if your a snob or just stirring   In the real world all they need to do is teach driving correctly including defensive driving  and all training should be with driving schools. Parents just teach kids their own bad habits.

And immigrants need to taught to drive properly instead of driving around the block then getting signed off.

[red750]

Yes, there are a number of accidents involving elderly drivers, but what about the hoons doing burnouts in the street, or young kids crashing vehicles and hitting pedestrians while high on Ice. Going up the street today at about 11 am, saw a long lne of cars behind a garbage collection truck stopping at every house to pick up the bin.

[red750]

44 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

how many times a year do we see old people crashing through buildings because they forgot which pedal was the brake

An expensive car crossed a road and crashed through a fence and a house at high speed, injuring a woman cooking in the kitchen. The driver was high on Ice. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

No brendan, I only want to exclude the lowest ten percent of IQ from driving. I have read and believe to be true, that 90 percent of the accidents are caused by this lowest ten percent.

Anyway. most people think like you and there is no way that I am going to get to find out for sure... But most people who I reckon are safe on the road could learn to pass my exams.

[BrendAn]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

No brendan, I only want to exclude the lowest ten percent of IQ from driving. I have read and believe to be true, that 90 percent of the accidents are caused by this lowest ten percent.

Anyway. most people think like you and there is no way that I am going to get to find out for sure... But most people who I reckon are safe on the road could learn to pass my exams.

Yes Bruce.  But would you agree proper driver training from the start would help a lot. The other day an l plater cut in front of my truck and nearly got cleaned up. That's brain dead parents teaching kids how to drive. 

When you drive around the Melbourne freeways all day you see some hair raising sights. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by BrendAn

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

Yes Bruce.  But would you agree proper driver training from the start would help a lot. The other day an l plater cut in front of my truck and nearly got cleaned up. That's brain dead parents teaching kids how to drive. 

When you drive around the Melbourne freeways all day you see some hair raising sights. 

That post was about the younger drivers not the old ones.

[facthunter]

Some oof the Most "Cheeky" driving is done by young "hotshots". They think it's ok  to be rude and leave no room for error. I doubt you could blame the Parent-Teachers for that... Nev

[onetrack]

Teaching drivers to keep their reflexes sharp would be a good start. This applies to both young and old. "Fuzzy" thinking is behind a lot of accidents. What do you think went wrong here?

 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-hilux-dash-cam-crash-australia/

[BrendAn]

40 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Some oof the Most "Cheeky" driving is done by young "hotshots". They think it's ok  to be rude and leave no room for error. I doubt you could blame the Parent-Teachers for that... Nev

i disagree, parents have a lot of influence on kids when they are teaching them.  my uncle pulled up beside a car at the servo and the l plate driver was that p***ed he could hardly walk and what appeared to be his father staggered out from the passenger side, extreme example i know but i see l platers and p platers doing stupid things every day. 

[BrendAn]

4 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Teaching drivers to keep their reflexes sharp would be a good start. This applies to both young and old. "Fuzzy" thinking is behind a lot of accidents. What do you think went wrong here?

 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-hilux-dash-cam-crash-australia/

would you say drugs or alcohol.   sometimes events like that turn out to be a medical episode too.

[BrendAn]

and something that came up in another discussion was currency. why can we drive on busy roads our whole life without doing a refresher course every few years. i have not driven a bdouble or roadtrain for 6 years but i can jump in either tomorrow and roar off up the road with a heavy load. 

[onetrack]

Well, slow reflexes were certainly behind it - along with, more than likely, inadequate tread depth on rear tyres. Yes, alcohol and drugs feature right up there in the reasons behind many crashes. Medical episodes, not generally so much.

[Thruster88]

52 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Teaching drivers to keep their reflexes sharp would be a good start. This applies to both young and old. "Fuzzy" thinking is behind a lot of accidents. What do you think went wrong here?

 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-hilux-dash-cam-crash-australia/

Sudden increase in turbo boost was to much for the track conditions. Early model with no traction control or traction control turn off, experienced driver would have been able to execute a nice drift.

 

Dashcam videos are educational in the same way as aircraft accident reports, they allow us to see what really causes accidents.  

Edited October 25, 2022 by Thruster88

[BrendAn]

9 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Sudden increase in turbo boost was to much for the track conditions. Early model with no traction control or traction control turn off, experienced driver would have been able to execute a nice drift.

 

Dashcam videos are educational in the same way as aircraft accident reports, they allow us to see what really causes accidents.  

do you reckon a hilux would have the power to do that.

[facthunter]

 Brendan an isolated extreme case doesn't prove much. People driving pissed end up with one of those gadgets you breathe into fitted or lose their licence for years for a repeat offender.. I've often been breathalysed twice in the same day. You don't have to be a genius to drive safely but you DO need to put in the effort and give the required attention and be taught properly at some stage.   Nev

[BrendAn]

Just now, facthunter said:

 Brendan an isolated extreme case doesn't prove much. People driving pissed end up with one of those gadgets you breathe into fitted or lose their licence for years for a repeat offender.. I've often been breathalysed twice in the same day. You don't have to be a genius to drive safely but you DO need to put in the effort and give the required attention and be taught properly at some stage.   Nev

totally agree, that was an extreme example.

[facthunter]

I think doing a bit of motorsport helps. Hanging the tail out a bit comes easy but you are a hoon. You certainly should not panic if some  tyres lose a bit of grip and know when to apply the brakes if you spin out.  You see plenty of hard armco contacts seen  when driving around and horrendous skid marks. People drive too close, but if you leave the proper gap some (cheeky) driver takes it.  Nev

[BrendAn]

31 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I think doing a bit of motorsport helps. Hanging the tail out a bit comes easy but you are a hoon. You certainly should not panic if some  tyres lose a bit of grip and know when to apply the brakes if you spin out.  You see plenty of hard armco contacts seen  when driving around and horrendous skid marks. People drive too close, but if you leave the proper gap some (cheeky) driver takes it.  Nev

a few weeks ago i counted 8 cars in a nose to tail, the daily ones i see are usually 3 or 4.

[old man emu]

6 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I would make sure that kids could calculate, for example, how centrifugal force combined with road camber could make your rav4 "unexpectedly"  roll.

Strewth, you pulled up a really complex one there. I wish that my traffic accident reconstruction notes were not packed away at the moment, or I would go through the whole complex calculation for determining the speed to roll over on a curve, and that would not be something that the majority of people would have the maths ability to do. Not blowing my own trumpet. I didn't know how to do it until I was taught it during my course.

 

6 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I think he is trying to say that everybody should be allowed to drive

Not so. What I was saying was that within a population of drivers there is a spread of acceptance of risk. Some few per cent have a low acceptance - very timid, very unsure. At the other end of the distribution there are those who accept a high risk - the reckless ones. What we need to do is to bring those outriders back towards the centre so that the spread is narrower.

[turboplanner]

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

Strewth, you pulled up a really complex one there. I wish that my traffic accident reconstruction notes were not packed away at the moment, or I would go through the whole complex calculation for determining the speed to roll over on a curve, and that would not be something that the majority of people would have the maths ability to do. Not blowing my own trumpet. I didn't know how to do it until I was taught it during my course.

Interesting; I do dynamic stability calculations for vehicles. Car design tends to control where they are loaded, but 4WD and Light Comercials towing caravans, boats, horse floats etc can easily be set up dynamically unstable. They are made worse by the "Stinger" articulation which is outside the wheelbase, so all in Cantilever which lifts mass of the steer axle and creates oversteer rather than the understeer designed into cars. About 40% of rigid trucks are dynamically untable through having the CG to far back, trucks and trailers get more complicated to set up, semi trailers and heavy combinations like road trains have more dynamic contributors. Roll stability itself is also a complex field, where you can set the design for a vehicle to be more roll-resistant. It would be interesting to compare your speed calcs between a dynamically stable and dynamically unstable vehicle.

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

Not so. What I was saying was that within a population of drivers there is a spread of acceptance of risk. Some few per cent have a low acceptance - very timid, very unsure. At the other end of the distribution there are those who accept a high risk - the reckless ones. What we need to do is to bring those outriders back towards the centre so that the spread is narrower.

Yes, a percentage of timid drivers can be seen facing stop signs too scared to go in the gaps then finally getting a burst of courage only to misjudge it and spear out in front of an oncoming vehicle.

 

One of the key reducers of fatalities in motor racing is control of driver behaviour, getting them all into a calm condition, eliminating retaliatons etc.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Wow, I was just thinking of the problem in high school terms.

How much sideways force does a tilted ( wheelbase and weight and height of c of g ) car need to move the resultant ( gravity plus inertia) force beyond the wheelbase? ( eg if the c of g height was 1m and the wheelbase 2m ,  then the car would overturn when the resultant ( weight plus centrifugal force ) reached 45 degrees. 

I don't think that's too hard, not after being taught how to do it.  The point is, you will be safer if you understand the forces acting... 

Here's another...  suppose some joker put a hidden ski-jump on the road and the car suddenly found itself going vertical. How high would it go for ( a) 40 kph and (b) 120 kph? ( answers are 6.3m and 57m ) This is simply  converting kinetic to potential energy. I reckon anybody who could not understand this, when taught properly, could never  understand the effect of excessive speed. Sure, it is simplified in that air resistance, for example, is ignored.

( There was a ford falcon in Darwin which was wrapped around a pole at about 7m height, and the suburb was flat... the driver was a 20 year-old soldier who died. How did he manage this?  No prize for the answer.)

[Geoff_H]

For turnover you will also need the coefficient of friction road to tyres lol.  I need to a quick calc before in tear into a corner lol