Rotax 912is in Iranian Drones....

[NT5224]

There are many stories and images on the net now including by credible sources (BBC and ABC) highlighting that the Iranian Shahed drones raining down on Ukraine are Rotax powered. The Ukrainians have displayed the wreckage of crashed drones.

 

Its not a good look for Rotax and their Canadian  parent company...  They are commencing an investigation.

 

My first thought is what a waste! (These are one shot weapons right?)

 

My second thought is how many Rotax aero  engines must have been exported to Iran? It must have been hundreds. Didn't anybody consider this slightly unusual? Is recreational flying a big thing in Iran?  Or go-carting  or snowmobiles ( or whatever else they use those motors for?)

 

This presumably gives Ukraine and her backers an idea of how many of these drones are still out there... Based upon how many Rotax motors were sold to Iran..

 

I don't think the engines have been locally pirated because they have 'Rotax' stamped on the plastic covers of the engine.

 

Apparently the British and Americans use Rotax in their drones too.

 

Alan 

Edited October 26, 2022 by NT5224

[facthunter]

There has been a few Rotax's pinched out of planes in this Country too. Now we know why.  Nev

[onetrack]

Devious nations, Govts and arms dealers, know how to acquire the necessary equipment, even when it is banned from sale to their country. It involves the same level of deviousness as drug dealers indulge in - hiding goods in crates marked as some other product, corrupting customs/border force/quarantine employees to look the other way, sending goods via torturous routes via other countries, that throws investigators off the scent - or importing "parts" in separate shipments, that are then assembled in-country, into the final required product.

They also purchase goods via innocuous and unsuspecting third-party legitimate businesses, and then transfer ownership to uncheckable companies located in tax havens, thus hiding the true ownership of the goods.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by onetrack

[Methusala]

Darkly amusing to think that Bombadier would display any more scruples than say, Raytheon, General Dynamics, BAE or any other arms dealer. Money is money...war is a scam. Who supplied the weapons used to kill 15,000 Russian speaking Eastern Ukrainians between 2014 and 2022?

Edited October 27, 2022 by Methusala

[NT5224]

26 minutes ago, Methusala said:

Darkly amusing to think that Bombadier would display any more scruples than say, Raytheon, General Dynamics, BAE or any other arms dealer. Money is money...war is a scam. Who supplied the weapons used to kill 15,000 Russian speaking Eastern Ukrainians between 2014 and 2022?

 Hi Methuselah. So you've piqued my interest here -and seem very well informed.

 

Who indeed supplied the weapons to kill 15000 Ukrainians between 2014 and 2022?

 

Alan 

[skippydiesel]

This is a political, not an engine topic - please transfer it to a general forum for debate

[Methusala]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

This is a political, not an engine topic - please transfer it to a general forum for debate

Nothing to do with engines. Just some virtue signal about weapons.

[NT5224]

Sorry folks...

 

This thread is about Rotax engines and their application to powering Iranian Drones. I was surprised that hundreds had been acquired by Iran and were now apparently buzzing around over Ukraine.

 

Alan

 

 

[facthunter]

Surely the control of these could be taken over and let the Ruskies have some of their OWN back?  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

Don’t underestimate the Iranians; during the Afghan war they took control of a high-tech US drone and landed it in Iran.

[facthunter]

They also shot down one of their own planes and soon  they'll have no women left alive. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

I believe they once shot down a plane full of Russian tourists. The Yanks don’t have a good record there either. 

 

During my recent trip home, I was pleased to see the pilot made a couple of big deviations to keep well clear of warzones.

[Area-51]

So from what is being written here; its ok if the US and UK use Rotax engines in drones but not ok when any "other" administration does?? Very confused, wouldn't these engines still produce the same performance regardless of end user? Cruise missiles use a multistage Williams turbo fan; that would work really well in an ultralight; never see these disposable surplus units for sale on fleabay...

[Yenn]

The Yanks thought that an airliner was attacking one of their warships, which just happened to be right next to Iran. You can't trust the Yanks or the Iranians or the Russians.

 

[Methusala]

MH-17 was bought down over the Ukraine. Remnants incl. a serial no. identified the BUK AA missile wreckage as a version supplied to the Ukraine by the Soviet Union. This weapon had been superseded  a long time ago by Russia but was still in service with the Ukies.

 The very westy on-side Dutch conducted the investigation and concluded that it was fired by so-called Russian supported 'rebels' from east Ukraine who were defending themselves against deadly Ukie attacks. Russia had radar tracks showing that the  airliner was being shadowed by a Ukrainian fighter. No Russian participation was allowed by the Dutch and no Russian evidence was admitted.

In these geo-political games there are no rules and the western media dutifully reports the western story.

You must read widely if you wish to analyse what exactly is going on. It takes both sides to make anything happen and the truth is very difficult to know. Don

[onetrack]

The Dutch conducted the MH17 investigation simply because the vast majority of the victims on MH17 were Dutch nationals.

It is not true that no Russian participation was allowed, and no Russian evidence was admitted.

The Russians refuse point blank, to take any responsibility for the crash, have tried to undermine and block the MH17 investigation at every turn, and have refused to participate in the investigation.

When alleged offenders refuse to participate in any investigation into their potential crimes, the investigation continues without their input.

[Methusala]

Truth does not reside in one person's stated view or another. Information is promoted by either side and, as I have written,"You must read widely if you wish to analyse what exactly is going on. It takes both sides to make anything happen and the truth is very difficult to know."

 

Russian missile manufacturer Almaz-Antei last October said that the 9M38 surface-to-air missile was launched by the BUK-M1 air defense missile system from the vicinity of Zaroshchenskoye settlement controlled by the Ukrainian military.

It was noted by the Russian side that the 9M38 missiles were removed from the Russian Armed Forces service in 2011, and the BUK-M1 system has not been produced in Russia since 1999.

 

No point in continuing with this. 2 sides and one believes what one does. Don

[NT5224]

Hey back to Rotax! 

 

What about my earlier point that if these drones are rotax powered then somebody should be able to calculate the number of units (Shahed drones), remaining, based on the number of motors produced and accounted for in 'legitimate' aircraft?  I have read that between 150-200 drones are thought to have been deployed over Ukraine. How many rotax engines could Iran potentially  posess and so how many remaining drones?

 

Having flown behind a rotax (scary high revs for a Lycoming aviator!)  I would consider them fairly low performance for a 21st century weapon of war....

 

ALAN

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by NT5224

[Methusala]

Weapons trade is draped in secrecy. I imagine that if Bombadier had a contract to supply engines to Iran for drone power they would not be at liberty to publicise any details regarding numbers of units or anything else for that matter.

[NT5224]

Ok I stand corrected. So Rotax engines aren't stamped with  registration numbers then?

 

My Lycoming is. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by NT5224

[facthunter]

Jabiru motors were used for drones. That's where the Lean Burn problems started trying to get endurance. Maybe they went to the GOODIES. , Not hard to grind numbers off and there's probably not a lot left of it either  when it's used.  Nev

[Methusala]

Rotax could easily denote engines supplied for military purpose as a different model and apply a different serial no. There is a world of difference between military and civilian trade.

[facthunter]

Arms traders are not often  wishing to be too public about such things except at the official promo's (arms shows). It's a bit like expecting top wines for free tasting at cellar door sales. The GOOD stuff comes out for the commercial clients. You ave to go 'round the back for that. Nev

[onetrack]

From the article below ......

 

Quote

Iran is also well known to have entire networks dedicated to circumventing sanctions and acquiring various military and dual-use tech, as does Russia and especially North Korea. Everything from fake cutout companies to just straight-up theft could account for some engines, and that is on top of the secondary marketplace. In other words, there are likely many vectors for Iran to get its hands on Rotax engines.

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/rotax-engine-found-in-iranian-mohajer-6-drone-downed-over-ukraine

[Methusala]

I think (Occum's razor) that they merely purchase what they need. Boeing have a 50% share in a Russian company that supplies titanium components for their airliners. We don't know much about what goes on. Why would Sweden, Denmark and Deutschland refuse to share information about the damage to Nordstream 1 & 2 with Russia? Search me!