Selling a plane

[RFguy]

Conditon report is just that. if there is a fist size  hole in the wing, that is written down, has nothing to do with Airworthiness.

If the engine has reached TBO, you must do what the mfr says. (that's what I do not like about RAAus  - mfr has last word which is not always a competent or true decision) (and why I have essentially left RAA 24-)  

If the engine has reached calendar, the manufacturer can say you must rebuild it, and you must. Some MFRs have varying rules on this- IE if used for training or hire etc - these are RAAaus organisation tweaks around the edges. 

on a case by case basis there is facility for RAAus to grant variations and exceptions. 

 

As for this term "Certified aircraft" I didnt think there was any such construct in RAAus. 

Nothign in RAA-aus is 'certified' like a GA aircraft . well it might be but certified  to something but to what ? there are many typres of certifications.....

The term is used very loosely, obviously.  

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by RFguy

[BrendAn]

9 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Conditon report is just that. if there is a fist size  hole in the wing, that is written down, has nothing to do with Airworthiness.

If the engine has reached TBO, you must do what the mfr says. (that's what I do not like about RAAus  - mfr has last word which is not always a competent or true decision) (and why I have essentially left RAA 24-)  

If the engine has reached calendar, the manufacturer can say you must rebuild it, and you must. Some MFRs have varying rules on this- IE if used for training or hire etc - these are RAAaus organisation tweaks around the edges. 

on a case by case basis there is facility for RAAus to grant variations and exceptions. 

 

As for this term "Certified aircraft" I didnt think there was any such construct in RAAus. 

Nothign in RAA-aus is 'certified' like a GA aircraft . well it might be but certified  to something but to what ? there are many typres of certifications.....

The term is used very loosely, obviously.  

 

 

 

thrusters are certified  trainers. the first certified ultralight trainer in the world.

 

[jackc]

Condition Reports should be written on toilet paper, because that is all they are worth 😞 

[BrendAn]

53 minutes ago, slb said:

In September 2021, as part of the Safety Month, RAAus produced the following video which confirms the on-condition requirements that must be met (watch to the end for clarification). Rotax TBO can be 9, 12 or 15 years depending on the engine serial number.

 

 

thanks for that, i put this in the part 103 thread. 

[RFguy]

43 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

thrusters are certified  trainers. the first certified ultralight trainer in the world.

 

but certified to what exactly ?  the answer to this is in the RAAus tech Manual https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/raaus-technical-manual-issue-41.pdf
There is "those that are accepted to be registered"- being a 24- aircraft does not mean is certified to  some standard - IE  this is not necessarily 'certified'.

IE there is nothing special about being certified without qualification - EXCEPT that the aircraft (production) did in some way,  have to satisfy CASA Part 21 requirements whether it was stated to meet a industry design regulation for that TYPE, or whether CASA was satisified  by means of  paperwork from someone that had cred, that it would meet those industry requirements or otherwise required design practice and performance (Thruster I guess) 

(which is worth something) 

 

Now, I hear everyone saying Oh it complies with ASTM for LSA. but there are a tone of standards in this league.

look this one up. its a good brief.

Search results for: 'Light+sport+aircraft'

WWW.ASTM.ORG

Four pages of results, and most of it relevant.

which is all referenced as a recognized industry standard in : 
 

and  Part 8 of Part 21, Manual of standards.

Part 21 Manual of Standards Instrument 2016

WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.AU

 

 

the trail : through the RAAus technical manual : 

Page 11 is a good start. "Abbreviations and Definitions", and 

SECTION 3.2 FACTORY BUILT TYPE CERTIFIED or TYPE ACCEPTED AIRCRAFT  and

SECTION 3.3 LIGHT SPORT AIRCRAFT (LSA) are relevant.

While a Thurster is not strictly an LSA< since it predates LSA< I beleive it falls into the same  qualified manufacturer backet for this discussion. 

In spirit, you just need to convince CASA (and how to do that is spelt out ) that it meets a category.

In general : 

CAO 95.55 "Interpretation", Section 5: spells out RAAaus aircraft.....

WHich leads us into 
https://www.casa.gov.au/search-centre/rules/part-21-casr-certification-and-airworthiness-requirements-aircraft-and-parts

which two things are spelt out : 21.031  Type design—meaning and 21.041  Type certificate—meaning

21.172  Definitions for Subpart : 

21.172  Definitions for Subpart

                   In this Subpart:

LSA standards means:

                     (a)  the standards for the design, performance or continuing airworthiness of light sport aircraft issued by the American Society for Testing and Materials, as in force from time to time; or

                     (b)  the standards prescribed by the Part 21 Manual of Standards for the design, performance or continuing airworthiness of light sport aircraft.

Note:          The standards issued by the American Society for Testing and Materials could in 2015 be viewed on the society’s website (http://www.astm.com).

qualified manufacturer of a light sport aircraft means:

                     (a)  a manufacturer who, at the time the light sport aircraft was manufactured, held a current production certificate for an aircraft; or

                     (b)  a manufacturer who has made a written declaration that, at the time the light sport aircraft was manufactured, it had:

                              (i)  contracted engineering personnel with experience in ultralight or light aircraft design to ensure compliance with LSA standards referred to in paragraph 21.186(2)(b); and

                             (ii)  facilities and tools suitable for the production of the aircraft in accordance with the applicable LSA standards; and

                            (iii)  competent personnel, with appropriate training, skills and experience, to perform work that affects product quality.

 

2.3 For registration, RAAus must be satisfied that the aircraft complies with the standards and
conditions of acceptance under the LSA criteria as described in AC 21.41(n) and AC 21.42(n).
(where (n) = latest edition)

 

g

[BrendAn]

4 minutes ago, RFguy said:

but certified to what exactly ?  the answer to this is in the RAAus tech Manual https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/raaus-technical-manual-issue-41.pdf
There is "those that are accepted to be registered"- being a 24- aircraft does not mean is certified to  some standard - IE  this is not necessarily 'certified'.

IE there is nothing special about being certified without qualification - EXCEPT that the aircraft (production) did in some way,  have to satisfy CASA Part 21 requirements whether it was stated to meet a industry design regulation for that TYPE, or whether CASA was satisified  by means of  paperwork from someone that had cred, that it would meet those industry requirements or otherwise required design practice and performance (Thruster I guess) 

(which is worth something) 

 

Now, I hear everyone saying Oh it complies with ASTM for LSA. but there are a tone of standards in this league.

look this one up. its a good brief.

Search results for: 'Light+sport+aircraft'

WWW.ASTM.ORG

Four pages of results, and most of it relevant.

which is all referenced as a recognized industry standard in : 
 

and  Part 8 of Part 21, Manual of standards.

Part 21 Manual of Standards Instrument 2016

WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.AU

 

 

the trail : through the RAAus technical manual : 

Page 11 is a good start. "Abbreviations and Definitions", and 

SECTION 3.2 FACTORY BUILT TYPE CERTIFIED or TYPE ACCEPTED AIRCRAFT  and

SECTION 3.3 LIGHT SPORT AIRCRAFT (LSA) are relevant.

While a Thurster is not strictly an LSA< since it predates LSA< I beleive it falls into the same  qualified manufacturer backet for this discussion. 

In spirit, you just need to convince CASA (and how to do that is spelt out ) that it meets a category.

In general : 

CAO 95.55 "Interpretation", Section 5: spells out RAAaus aircraft.....

WHich leads us into 
https://www.casa.gov.au/search-centre/rules/part-21-casr-certification-and-airworthiness-requirements-aircraft-and-parts

which two things are spelt out : 21.031  Type design—meaning and 21.041  Type certificate—meaning

21.172  Definitions for Subpart : 

21.172  Definitions for Subpart

                   In this Subpart:

LSA standards means:

                     (a)  the standards for the design, performance or continuing airworthiness of light sport aircraft issued by the American Society for Testing and Materials, as in force from time to time; or

                     (b)  the standards prescribed by the Part 21 Manual of Standards for the design, performance or continuing airworthiness of light sport aircraft.

Note:          The standards issued by the American Society for Testing and Materials could in 2015 be viewed on the society’s website (http://www.astm.com).

qualified manufacturer of a light sport aircraft means:

                     (a)  a manufacturer who, at the time the light sport aircraft was manufactured, held a current production certificate for an aircraft; or

                     (b)  a manufacturer who has made a written declaration that, at the time the light sport aircraft was manufactured, it had:

                              (i)  contracted engineering personnel with experience in ultralight or light aircraft design to ensure compliance with LSA standards referred to in paragraph 21.186(2)(b); and

                             (ii)  facilities and tools suitable for the production of the aircraft in accordance with the applicable LSA standards; and

                            (iii)  competent personnel, with appropriate training, skills and experience, to perform work that affects product quality.

 

2.3 For registration, RAAus must be satisfied that the aircraft complies with the standards and
conditions of acceptance under the LSA criteria as described in AC 21.41(n) and AC 21.42(n).
(where (n) = latest edition)

 

g

mine was 25 rego.   they were only factory built . no kits were produced so no 19 reg as far as i know.

[facthunter]

Whatever it is it involves considerable cost and effort which is placed on the Manufacturer.  The "Number" is then 24 (and 25??)  OR VH. Some Kitfox's were VH.  and plenty of little stuff like a tipsy Nipper.  Nev

[RFguy]

The difference between meeting the  ASTM standard for LSA (light sport airplanes) and the standard for a  Part23 for normal category is huge. It's enormous !

It's one reason why you can buy a very nice LSA new for $150k but a GA aircraft new 400k+ avionics.

 

like this gem. 

 

 

 

 

 

[F10]

My understanding, after purchasing my Gazelle. You need a condition report done. This confirms the aircraft and maintenance logs are in a satisfactory condition, that the configuration matches the registration certificate. Part of the condition report (done by an L2 level maintainer) requires either the L2 flying the aircraft or witnessing it being flown, to confirm it operates normally.

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, F10 said:

My understanding, after purchasing my Gazelle. You need a condition report done. This confirms the aircraft and maintenance logs are in a satisfactory condition, that the configuration matches the registration certificate. Part of the condition report (done by an L2 level maintainer) requires either the L2 flying the aircraft or witnessing it being flown, to confirm it operates normally.

Flight is optional, and if not flown just include a reason.  The condition report describes the aircraft condition at the time.  

[BrendAn]

On 27/06/2023 at 10:32 AM, facthunter said:

Whatever it is it involves considerable cost and effort which is placed on the Manufacturer.  The "Number" is then 24 (and 25??)  OR VH. Some Kitfox's were VH.  and plenty of little stuff like a tipsy Nipper.  Nev  . a pic off the net to show you. 2 seat thrusters were 25 reg certified trainers.

[tillmanr]

23 prefix is also used for lsa

[facthunter]

LSA confuses things. It was a stop gap, never really going anywhere. IMHO. Nev

[FlyingVizsla]

Flying the plane is "if possible" according to the Form

RECREATIONAL AIRCRAFT CONDITION REPORT  TECH FORM 013

 

If possible a flight demonstration should be performed by the owner, or a pilot nominated by the owner,
in the presence of the inspector. The experience of the pilot should be taken into account when assessing
comments as to the handling of the aircraft.
The pilot should conduct a normal full power take-off at maximum takeoff weight, climb to 1000’ AGL,
reduce throttle to cruise power, perform a left and a right 360 degree turn with at least 30 degrees angle
of bank and carry out 2 or 3 circuits and landings.
On this or a subsequent flight, not necessarily in the view of the inspector, the pilot should climb the
aircraft to a safe height and perform a number of straight stalls.