RA-Aus's Understanding of Safety Videos

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The first RA-Aus video about LOC is here, https://cust48209.au.v6send.net/ch/48209/9jpgx/2896578/FSnY5qxZ1DUMhm5yEOwSTMki2qSTeNpryZF.hMcO.html. I counted 69 errors, most of them trivial, three of them dangerous. The mistakes are numbered. The dangerous errors are numbers 25, 36 and 53. 36 is the worst. The transcript is not perfect but good enough. The bit before the title screen has material missing. The letter after the numbers signify the following: T for trivial nitpicking. M for meaningful. B bad. DANGEROUS for dangerous. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

Every year in sport and general aviation, loss of control are the single biggest factor in aviation accidents

 

BOB TAIT

Recognizing the onset early and avoiding it in the first place. 

 

1T. Wrong order. 

2M. The video never thoroughly examines recognizing early signs of LOC on takeoff. 

 

STUCK CONTROLS

0:28. "By the time I'd got it, the aircraft had become airborne in the three-point attitude. I probably didn't even have time to think oh shit"  

 

3M. Stuck controls are not really a LOC accident. They are not what takeoff LOC accidents are all about. Putting this first is bizarre. 

 

0:30 STALL SPIN MAN

The plane went into a 360 degree accident. 

 

04:00 BOB

 "High nose attitude, it's a clear stall-spin." High nose attitude and then a stall. 

 

DARK BLUE SHIRT

0:47 "As we start to lose visual reference to the natural horizon, we start to lose out situational awareness as to what the aircraft is doing."

 

4T. You only lose situational awareness for what is in front of the nose. If you lose situational awareness for yaw, that is because of poor technique. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

In this three part series we examine... We look at the primary, we look at contribute to contributing factors and we talk to real pilots, subject matter experts, and we delve into situations and how to avoid these types of accidents. 

 

5T. You don't delve. 

 

WHITE DECATHLON

1:14 "We've used too much rudder to keep the aircraft in balance on a full climb power, for example. And now the aeroplane is very slowly. Now I've gone over" 

 

6M. I don't even know what this means. 

 

DECATHLON 2 

1:20 "Left rudder and departure. … And, we've got the visual again. Just to track away from the houses, mate."  [aircraft spinning] So? 

 

7T. This is irrelevant to stall spin accidents on takeoff. There is plenty of footage of that. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

1:29 "If we can save just one life, it will be worth making this series." 

 

8T. I hope that even less than that would make it worthwhile. The stall-spin man showed that injuries can be life-changing without being fatal. 

            9M. It would have been better to give the viewer credit for saving their own life, and the lives of their passengers, to motivate them to be the hero of their own story. 

 

1:38 FOXBAT 1 

"One, two, three. We've just lost over 10 knots."

 

10M. I only know what the one two three is about because I already know that the startle effect lasts three seconds. The video just demonstrated that someone loses 10 knots with startle with an engine failure, but if you did not already know that, you would not know from seeing this video. 

 

If we were only 200 ft [above ground level], look what we lost … we're in the ground already." "That's right." [Aircraft in controlled, horisontal flight.] 

 

11B. The tacit point being that hitting the ground is really bad and to be avoided at all costs. There are two ways of hitting the ground: travelling horizontally in controlled flight, and travelling vertically in a spin. The first type of hitting the ground is vastly preferential to the second type of hitting the ground. 

            12M.    The learning rule of primacy says that what you learn first you tend to learn best. And the video has just told the viewer that hitting the ground horisontal is the bad type of hitting the ground. In my view, this will make the student more likely to prioritize not hitting the ground by not pushing the stick forward enough. And make less likely to do what they should do, maintaining control of the aircraft. In my view, pilots should be taught that if there is a risk of LOC on takeoff, they need to head to the ground ASAP. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

"We hope that this series will help create a safer flight environment for out pilots."

 

13T. The environment is what is around you. Unless you are concerned about out of control planes landing on top of pilots, the only way that this statement makes literal sense is if the presenter specifically hope that pilots are safe as passengers. 

 

1:49 LOSS OF CONTROL TITLE SCREEN

 

2:03 BOB

The loss of control can be related to two separate issues. You can have a loss of control due to external factors, wind shear etc. Or can have loss of control due to simple misloading or the pilot mishandling of the controls themselves.

 

14T. That's three things. 

            15T. The issues are not separate, but related. Latent errors in one area will make actual errors in the other areas more likely to occur. 

 

"But when it comes to the normal general aviation application, you want to look at the idea of avoiding the situation which is likely to produce that outcome and ahh recognizing the onset early and avoiding it in the first place."

 

16M. The video never does that. 

 

2:26 VOICEOVER

Even the experienced pilots can be caught out by a loss of control.

 

2:32 STUCK CONTROLS

At the time of the accident, I would have been flying for 25 years. Probably had about 200 hours or more experience flying experience that particular aircraft and never had any issues with it. Between 

            I probably didn't even have time to think oh s-. It really did happen that quickly. So, I completed all the pre takeoff checks on the run, including controls full and free. 

            I said to the pilot in front 'Handing over.' She said 'Taking over'. The throttle was advanced. Ahh, once it was at full power, within a couple of seconds, I expected the stick to come forward, the stick did not come forward, so I questioned it. I said what are you doing. I did not even get to finish the question. I said what are you doing. She said "It won't move." There was not even any play, which was the bit that concerned me the most. 

    By the time that I... It started to lift the left wing, possibly because the pilot was still holding right rudder to keep in to keep it straight, which is the right thing to do. Because of that, it impacted on it's right wingtip. As soon as that happened my hand just moved forward and to the left. And then almost immediately after that, it hit on the undercarriage, the undercarriage folded and the aircraft ended up on its belly. Just goes to show how completely unaware. We were caught out. 

 

17T. Stuck controls are not a leading cause of crashing on takeoff. Engine power loss, and power on departure stalls are. 

            18M. The video never stated the basics: Engine power loss, and power on departure stalls are the basic causes of LOC on takeoff. The video never articulates that. 

            19M. "Handing over" and "taking over" are not standard phrases. If confusion about who is flying the plane was not still killing people, this would be a T. Yes, I know it's the pilot telling their story and this is not what you were emphasizing. Either edit it, get them to say it properly, or have a disclaimer. 

 

4:20 BOB

"The end result, though, is still a good example of what we've been saying. 

 

Emphasis added. Bob just told us he knows that it is not actually a good example of what we are saying. 

 

The airplane became airborne when it was not intended allow that to happen. And even ground effect can't help if you if you stuck in a tail-low attitude. It attempted to get airborne but umm immediately couldn't fly so it dropped a wing. But yeah, it was a shame to see such a nice little airplane in such a mess." 

 

20B. Each year people are killed trying to save aeroplane. Airplane safety advocates say over and over that the desire to save the airplane has led to the loss of life. My own view is that an aircraft that can get it's controls locked in spite of competent and correct maintenance, and have people not know about this, is best off wrecked. If they were doing stalls at 5000' and the controls got locked with full up elevator, they both would have both died. This way, owners of other such aircraft can be alerted to the problem. 

            

4:53 WHITE SHIRT

"Jeremy, as you said before, in the takeoff phase of flight, there's a lot going on. And pilots don't always see what's going on when when we takeoff. Slipstream effect, we've got procession, p forces and gyroscopic effect." 

 

21M. Slipstream effects, procession, p-forces and gyroscopic effects do not need to be mentioned here. The certainly don't need to be mentioned here and not explained. If you are going to mention them, explain them. 

            22B. What needs to be said, is that if an aircraft is in a power on climb, and slows down, and the rudder is not adjusted, it will yaw to the left. That's and one of the indications that the video alluded to but did not mention. 

 

5:05 GREY SHIRT

"As we start to lose visual reference to the natural horizon, we start to lose out situational awareness as to what the aircraft is doing. Okay? 

 

23T. No. As mentioned above. 

 

So, when the nose is above the horizon it is very, very easy to not be able to see the aircraft yawing which, which translated into rolling and putting us possibly in a situation where we don't want to be in. Yaw can be very subtle and very difficult to see, whereas seeing the aircraft bank or rolling is much, much easier to see. So, pilots naturally will control the roll but the actual problem is the aircraft yawing."  (demonstrated stick side to side) 

 

24T. Not being able to see over the nose is a tailwheel pilot problem, not a fundamental. 

            25 DANGEROUS. The speaker basically said that it is good to control bank with ailerons. We all know that's not what he meant but that is still what he said. The learning theory name for this is the curse of knowledge. If you know about something really, really well, it can make it hard to teach it

 

And of course all this is happening at high angle of attack, low airspeed and limited control. 

 

Lack of controllably. 

 

26T. The elevator should still work fine.

 

And we we're very quickly setting ourselves up into a loss of control in flight situation.

 

5:49 VOICEOVER

Ensuring that the aircraft is configured properly for takeoff is vital. However, there is something the pilot should have already considered before they start the engine.

 

27T. Videos are supposed to in a logical, chronological order. Preflight occurs before the flight. 

 

6:00 BOB

You do a preflight on your aeroplane, you walk around and look at it. You can't see where the centre of gravity is. It would be lovely if you had a red line of the fuselage. And you could go, 'Uh, oh my centre of gravity is too far back!' The big danger with centre of gravity problem is the fact that ahh you would get in the aeroplane and do your normal pre start checks and to you it would feel perfectly normal. You couldn’t fault it. You taxi out to the holding point, you do your run ups, whatever radio calls are required. You'd have no idea there is anything wrong, because on the ground, the aeroplane is sitting on its undercarriage. But once it becomes suspended under those two imaginary forces of lift and weight, ahh, the little arrows that instructors like to draw all over the board, once it becomes airborne, it's then that you chh, you realise the problem exists. 

 

28T. You should not train to do your runups at the holding point. It's T for a reason, okay

            29M. Lift and weight are not imaginary. This is the curse of knowledge as referred to above. 

            30T. There are specific reasons that C of G being too far back is a problem, related to the action of the elevator and centre of lift on the main wing. It might have been nice to have heard why.

 

6:56 NEIL SCHAEFFER

At the Caboolture airport, Neil Schaeffer talks about important considerations in the takeoff phase. Important point to note. As you lift that pressure off the nose wheel, the tendency of the p force for you to yaw left. Correct airspeed, positive. Correct attitude. Positive rate of climb. Runway centerline. 

 

31T. But if the engine quits, the attitude has to be lower. 

            32M. If the airplane slows because of getting out of ground effect, the angle of climb will be shallower and angle of attack for a given attitude will be higher. We are talking about causes of accidents, here. 

 

7:20 BLUE SHIRT 

The takeoff is a very low energy state for the aircraft. We are in a part of the flight envelope where we do not have much energy. We need to understand what out aircraft will do on takeoff, what it looks like and how we actually can control that. So, because of the fact that we have a propeller on the front of our aircraft, as you mentioned, we have p factor, we have slipstream, we have a gyroscopic effect, we pitch the nose up as we take off. All of these effects are going to cause the aircraft to yaw in one direction or the other. It does  depend on the design of the aircraft and the manu' the engine manufacturer. 

 

33T. Because airspeed is the most important element of energy here, you are better off just talking about airspeed, and not mentioning energy. It just complicates things. 

            34M. You actually can't fully understand what the aircraft will do if you climb out of ground effect with an engine out, because you can't practice it. You can't practice it at altitude because there is no ground effect, and you can't practice it low because it's dangerous, and you are not allowed to stop the engine anywhere anyway. It is better to tell the viewer that you will not have experienced the airplane like this before. 

 

7:53 DECATHLON

Roll, yaw. brake. Yep. 

 

35T. Irrelevant. Get some footage of LOC on takeoff accidents? 

 

8:00 BLUE SHIRT

That yaw for us can sometimes be difficult for us to to see, especially if the nose is above the horizon, so the aircraft actually will yaw and then roll in the same direction that it is yawing, okay? Now, the consideration for you on takeoff is that because we are at a high angle of attack, they the ailerons are not going to be as effective as they usually are, okay? And so we run the risk of actually getting ourselves into a loss of control in flight by using ailerons. Okay? At the end of the day, your feet are the only things that are going to going to fix this situation and the balance ball is going to tell you if you are doing the right thing or not.

 

36 DANGEROUS. This segment corrects earlier dangerous error (except it actually can't for reasons I will not explore.) But if you are yawing and rolling, you need to use the elevator even more than you need to use your rudder. 

 

8:50 ANOTHER BLUE SHIRT

I guess it comes down to how well the pilot is prepared. So, when a pilot goes ahh goes out for a flight, the takeoff is the first thing that happens. And it is not until they actually start the takeoff roll that they may not actually realised that they have prepared themselves properly for the flight that they are about to undertake. So, proper preparation in the takeoff phase is really important. 

    The second thing is as well that the takeoff involves a lot of changing energy, so you are going basically from a standstill into a flying state very, very quickly and if the energy of the aircraft is not managed appropriately, if the aircraft is out of balance, if it is overweight, if the weight and balance has not been done correctly, all those things can come back and bite the pilot very very quickly at low altitude with very little time to respond. 

 

37T. The takeoff is not the first thing that happens. 

            38T. The next sentence is incoherent. 

            39T. There must have been a better way of saying the second paragraph. 

 

9:30 BOB

It is really a matter of preserving the energy source that is giving you control in the first place, that is airspeed. So, the aeroplane has to become... we have to avoid the temptation at times to get the airplane airborne too early and fly it in ground effect. 

            As I have often said to people in commercial in aerodynamic classes, the ability to get airborne is there if you want to push it hard, you can actually force the airplane to get airborne in ground effect and then make an attempt to climb out ahh with insufficient airspeed to maintain a stable climb, and of course that is going to lead to loss of control, ahh eventually a stall. 

            One of the problems in that area I have always found, if I get airborne, if I do it in an aerodrome like here at Redcliffe for example,  we pretend that the strip is short so you don't introduce the psychological aspect of 'I really have to do it today' so a student can be lead to believe that it is really simple and basic, you just follow a couple of rules. The day he gets out to strip, and I'm talking about still legal as far as the p chart goes, but the limit of the p chart, very few people have that experience in their training, very few people are faced with the situation, when they are faced with that situation and they really do have to clear the gum trees at the end of the strip, there is a very strong temptation to try and force the aeroplane into the air early and that's the very worst thing to do. 

 

40T. Again, there is no operational definition of too early. 

            41T. RA-Aus planes do not have p charts. 

 

11:07 ORANGE JACKET

That's it, low low low. There's 60, 70 knots. And you go. 

 

42T. Irrelevant.

 

11:20 BLUE SHIRT

The problem with the loss of control is the stall, the unusual attitude, occurs when the pilot is not expecting it. The pilot will experience what is called startle and surprise. So, this startle and surprise is a breakdown of ahh of the cognitive ability of the pilot or causes the breakdown in the pilot to think clearly and basically makes them forget their their basic training. 

 

43M. Stalls do not occur at unusual attitudes. If the plane gets to an unusual attitude on takeoff, that is not because the pilot has lowered the nose on purpose, the plane is already going to crash. Look up the definition of unusual attitude. 

            44T. This is telling pilots that if they get a fright and it takes them a moment to think that they have forgotten their basic training and failed It would be better to tell pilots that a startle response of three seconds is normal, and that if they train well, they will remember their training just fine.  

 

11:40 WHITE FOXBAT

One two three . We've just lost over 10 knots. I've now lowered the nose. Look at our sink rate now. Yeah, that's right one thousand a feet right there. 

 

45B. Same problem as before. If you hit flat ground at a descent rate of 1000 feet per minute you will probably walk away. That is how one particular bush plane is landed on purpose. I can't remember it's name.  

 

11:55 WHITE SHIRT

Pilots often don't do what they have been trained to do, partly because of startle and surprise, but also when they are taught to fly they are taught to fly an attitude but they don't always correlate an attitude to an angle of attack.

            So particularly like when we are in a climbing phase of flight on takeoff, for example, if we have something like an engine failure, we may lower the nose but we haven't actually fixed the angle of attack problem. So it's actually important that we assertively move the controls forward, pitch the aircraft to a safe attitude, we would completely avoid that stall near the ground. 

 

This paragraph tries to undo the second dangerous mistake from earlier in the video, number 36. 

            46B. You need an operational definition of "assertive". This is a bad mistake because pushing the stick forward assertively is the one thing that will stop you dying.  

 

12:30 WHITE FOXBAT

If we were only 200 feet, look what we lost. We're in the ground already. That's right. 

 

47M. As mentioned before, there are worse things than flying into the ground. 

 

12:40 DARK BLUE SHIRT

So, what we need to do is understand how to train resilience within the pilot's training, train that resilience into the pilot how to recover from that startle surprise.

 

48M. Stop repeating yourself and tell us how. It's easy, actually. When you are away from the airport, visualize yourself pushing the stick forward until you have 20 degrees nose down. Before every flight, say out loud, "Whenever the engine stops, I'm lowering the nose 20 degrees, unless I've already got best glide of X knots." And do upset training. It's simple. There is no need to introduce psychobabble about resilience. 

 

12:50 BOB

It's a clear stall spin accident. It appears that the airplane has been lifted off the ground unnecessarily early considerably the space that is left. High nose attitude followed by a stall followed by a wing drop. 

 

49T. Operational definition of early, please. 

 

13:30 STALL SPIN MAN

I remember getting in the airplane, warming the airplane up, and how hot the day was. After that, I don't really remember much at all. The plane was 80 hp and a little heavier than the planes I was used to flying, so power to weight ratio was probably a little less than I was used to from the planes that I had taken off from there before. As I can see from the video, I scrubbed the airplane off the runway roughly about 200' of the runway and was in ground effect. And as I went over the valley, I lost my ground effect, and my assessment by watching the video, I'm assuming the airplane would maintain speed or gain speed. And I knew I was flying into crosswind from my right. But I thought the plane would be able to power through it. A lot of things went wrong, including you know the crosswind, you know the loss of ground effect, hot day. 

 

The plane went into about a 360 degree stall spin and impacted the ground. Oh. I don't recall anything after that. My ahh my son came down, shut the fuel off, which if I were caught in it and it caught fire, I wouldn't be here today. um, so, that was exceptionally lucky that happened. Um, was in the hospital about two months intensive care. I was unconscious about six days. Um, so, wheelchair for six months. It ahh broke multiple bones in my face, to my ribs, to about everywhere on my body, my back. I have a rod in my leg. At one point, they were going to amputate my right foot, but. So, it was a traumatic experience to say the last least.

 

50B. The problems were not what he said. The problem was that he lifted off too slow, did not maintain flying speed, did not recognise the yaw, did not slam the stick forward, and did not use his rudder. I don't care that he's an example and I utterly reject any notion that anything here is just to get people thinking. 

            

15:30 BOB

If I'm umm, taking off and I've forced the airplane to become early, your main thing with ground effect produces dramatic uhh reduction in drag in ahh in ahh induced drag. Ahh, and so the airplane behaves as if it will accelerate like mad. It feels really good while it's in roughly one to one and a half wing spans is usually put down as a figure in height. The problem then being that if the airplane promises that it's going to fly like mad, like a homesick angel, and they say, and the pilot encourages it to go, it gets about about one and a half wingspans and it seems like someone tied a parachute on the back. And all of a sudden, even though you have not done anything, all of a sudden the airspeed's dropping for no apparent reason umm because you are leaving, you you were getting benefit of ground affect, shouldn't be flying in that condition.  Ahh, so, the danger there is, of course, is that if the aeroplane loses sufficient speed it, speed is where lift comes from, the aeroplane settles back, in the worst case, back onto the runway but now you have just used another 200 m. 

 

The best paragraph in the video. 

 

51M. Settling back on the runway is far, far, far from the worst that can happen. 

 

17:00 VOICEOVER

Takeoff emergencies are a key area where we see loss of control events. Maintaining control energy in the aircraft is paramount, along with the correct actions and decisions. In the following example, we see how the pilot responds to the change of energy. 

 

52M. Speed, not energy. 

    53 DANGEROUS. Did I just watch an entire video about takeoff accidents and maintaining airspeed was barely mentioned? This is a curse of knowledge problem. 

            54T. Motherhood statement to end with. 

 

17:05 FOXXBAT 2. 

Good work getting your nose down. 

 

55M. Getting your nose down at cruise, in level flight, is totally different from getting your nose down when you are a) nose up and b) slow and c) slowing. 

 

17:10 VOICEOVER

But how easy is it for a pilot to become confused in an emergency situation?

 

56T. Motherhood.

 

17:20 FOXBAT 2. (Incomplete) 

Engine power, where are we going to go? Oh, one down below you. 

 

I'm going to land on my left. ... 

 

Alright. Lets get all the flap out. 

 

As we're committed, we're at 55 knots. Nose down, nose down, nose down, trim it down trim it down. Okay start turning. Lose height, the turn. 

    Now, because of the nature of this, if you need to need to use a little bit of power, that is fine. Okay, wings level. Okay, go straight in. 

 

56M. Getting your nose down at cruise, in level flight, is totally different from getting your nose down when you are a) nose up and b) slow and c) slowing. 

 

17:55 BOB

The pilot of any experience level, faced with the sudden ahh loss of control or potential loss of control situation is ahh immediate the  immediate reaction is to be startled ahh  and at a time when you cannot afford to have hesitation and you have to have an ingrained reaction to it really. And ahh ahh, when I was training students on a regular basis, umm, we used to make habit ahh of in flight, this is not so much in takeoff, but in flight, or even on the ground because often the student will oblige with providing you with an example of loss of control so you can do something about it then. But in flight, we used to give students regular practice at recovering. There's very old catch phrase that was used for years: PAT, power, attitude, trim. So, if you want to establish any given performance condition, then you apply the power that is appropriate, you adopt the attitude that is appropriate, and when you are satisfied that things are satisfactory, you apply appropriate trin. Loss of control can be addressed the same way. 

 

57T. You can afford to have hesitation. You have to. Hesitating for three seconds is to be expected. If you can't afford three seconds, you need to fly differently.

            58M. PAT in cruise is different from taking off. Refer mistake 56. 

            59T. The section before the PAT section is incoherent. 

 

STUCK CONTROLS (Incomplete.) 

The preflight is essential. And, if you are operating from rough and unprepared trips, you should, in fact, you should be doing a post-flight check. Because of debris being thrown up. So, check the aircraft after each check. The preflight check is one of the most important things that you can ever do. The fact that we survived uninjured is a plus and that there is lessons and learnings come from it. If we are able to share that learning with other pilots, I see that has a huge benefit. 

 

60M. Introducing nonstandard ways of checking aircraft is not sensible. 

            61T. Leave out references to checking the aircraft on rough strips, please. 

 

19:50 GREY SHIRT

It absolutely comes down to knowledge of yourself and of your own aircraft. What your aircraft is going to do. If you are not sure, there are a lot of very qualified instructors who can show you in a safe controlled manner. 

 

STALL SPIN MAN

If I could go back, I would of course make the decision not to take the plane up there that day. Haul it down to my runway on a trailer that you know has more runway. I got complacent. I flew a lot of unimproved runways and thought I could, you know, take the plane off there, an I could handle about anything. If you have to think more than once, twice about whether or not it is safe to do the flight, my suggestion is to do something different, either find a different day, different runway or don't do it at all. 

            My hope is talking about this accident and that it will help one person to make a better decision than I did or a better decision that some of the pilots that have had this happen to them and were not as fortunate as me, so that they don't end up where I'm at because I'm every day, every minute of every day, dealing with the pain of walking, um. My face being numb to um the injuries I'm sustained will be with me the rest of my life and it's not something I wish on anyone.

 

62B. Thinking twice is fine. The important thing is to think. You could think for half an hour and then check with your instructor. That is much better than just bailing. The speaker implies that it's all up to your thinking. It isn't. 

 

21:37 WHITE SHIRT

I'd like to thank all the pilots who were brave enough to put their stories out there. And our experts and our instructors for the information they've shared with us today. We can see, in the takeoff phase of flight, how easy it is for a loss of control event to occur and how important things like weight, balance, performance and conditions before every takeoff.

            We have to overcome the temptation to try and force the aircraft into the air before it's ready. And also if we encounter an emergency situation, overcome the human factor to not recognise to to freeze or not react correctly with the right control actions, um to avoid a loss of control, particularly uh after an engine failure after takeoff. Any one of these factors can cause us to have a loss of control in takeoff phase of flight. So it is important that we recognise them and avoid them before they result a loss of control. Make sure you understand the forces that are going to affect you in the takeoff phases of flight. Know how to manage them and more importantly, know how to recognise when they are not going the way you want them to go. Remember, takeoffs are optional. 

     Join us for episode two where we look at loss of control in flight. 

 

63T. All the pilots? There were two. 

            64T. The video did not show how important weight and balance was important. It was mentioned, but never explained. 

            65T. No definition of forcing the aircraft off the ground, again. 

            66M. Summaries that are of a middling level of abstraction are a problem. They need to either a) be specific and concrete things to do (and/or b) tie everything together, in an overarching, more abstract way.)

 

(Into)

 

23:03 WRITTEN MATERIAL 

It is not a matter of if you might find yourself in a situation that might lead to a loss of control but when. 

 

Every pilot should discuss pathways to improve their skills with a local flight school and ensure that they have ongoing training in loss of control prevention. 

 

For more information visit: 

 

67. There should have been something pithy and memorable here. 

 

ADDITIONAL

 

68M. The credits say who wrote the video. The problem is, no one wrote the video. I don't buy the idea that they wanted spontaneous convos. There are ways of having your cake and eating it too with this issue. 

69T. The volume levels between the different segments that I had to adjust the volume between segment. 

[turboplanner]

Well the RAA members voted for the people who've come up with this.

[jackc]

The less knowledge you have, the harder it is to sift the wheat from the chaff, personally I like American  videos case histories and podcasts…….greater amounts of quality wheat………  🙂 

[Thruster88]

A very good summary Apename, I was thinking very much the same things as I watched it. I described it as being OK in another thread, that was too generous.  

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Well the RAA members voted for the people who've come up with this.

How do we know if the people we vote for have the skills to make on point video using correct aeronautical language? 

[APenNameAndThatA]

13 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

A very good summary Apename, I was thinking very much the same things as I watched it. I described it as being OK in another thread, that was too generous.  

Thank you for those kind words. There are two different types of LoC on takeoff accidents: power on stalls and power off stalls. Maintain airspeed. Get the stick forward. 

 

About the comment in the video about you have to use the rudder, Fact Hunter said to me here a few months back that that was asking a lot of the rudder, when I mentioned keeping the wings level in sustained stalls with the rudder.  (Im not suggesting he agrees with me overall). Someone else here was saying airspeed, airspeed, airspeed, which was also more important than this vid.

 

They could have mentioned indications that you are losing airspeed, like yaw, and needing more back stick to maintain the same sight picture. Instead, crickets.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I sent this email to raaus.

 

Hi

 

Attached is a rough, annotated transcript of the video Takeoff, accessed today from https://cust48209.au.v6send.net/ch/48209/9jpgx/2896578/FSnY5qxZ1DUMhm5yEOwSTMki2qSTeNpryZF.hMcO.html

The video contains about 69 errors, three of them dangerous. The most dangerous one was the suggestion that if an aircraft yaws on takeoff, the only way of dealing with it is with rudder. 

 

Would it be out of the question to reassure me that this is brought to the board’s attention? 

 

I suggest that next time, you just get a single expert to write the video, and then go from there. As I alluded to in the annotated transcript, I think that the problem is not that the people who produced the video do not know enough. I think that there were two problems, a) everyone involved with the video was very knowledgeable, and the so-called curse of knowledge struck, and b) the bast majority of the script was not written.  

 

————————————-

 

 

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

The first RA-Aus video about LOC is here, https://cust48209.au.v6send.net/ch/48209/9jpgx/2896578/FSnY5qxZ1DUMhm5yEOwSTMki2qSTeNpryZF.hMcO.html. I counted 69 errors, most of them trivial, three of them dangerous. The mistakes are numbered. The dangerous errors are numbers 25, 36 and 53. 36 is the worst. The transcript is not perfect but good enough. The bit before the title screen has material missing. The letter after the numbers signify the following: T for trivial nitpicking. M for meaningful. B bad. DANGEROUS for dangerous. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

Every year in sport and general aviation, loss of control are the single biggest factor in aviation accidents

 

BOB TAIT

Recognizing the onset early and avoiding it in the first place. 

 

1T. Wrong order. 

2M. The video never thoroughly examines recognizing early signs of LOC on takeoff. 

 

STUCK CONTROLS

0:28. "By the time I'd got it, the aircraft had become airborne in the three-point attitude. I probably didn't even have time to think oh shit"  

 

3M. Stuck controls are not really a LOC accident. They are not what takeoff LOC accidents are all about. Putting this first is bizarre. 

 

0:30 STALL SPIN MAN

The plane went into a 360 degree accident. 

 

04:00 BOB

 "High nose attitude, it's a clear stall-spin." High nose attitude and then a stall. 

 

DARK BLUE SHIRT

0:47 "As we start to lose visual reference to the natural horizon, we start to lose out situational awareness as to what the aircraft is doing."

 

4T. You only lose situational awareness for what is in front of the nose. If you lose situational awareness for yaw, that is because of poor technique. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

In this three part series we examine... We look at the primary, we look at contribute to contributing factors and we talk to real pilots, subject matter experts, and we delve into situations and how to avoid these types of accidents. 

 

5T. You don't delve. 

 

WHITE DECATHLON

1:14 "We've used too much rudder to keep the aircraft in balance on a full climb power, for example. And now the aeroplane is very slowly. Now I've gone over" 

 

6M. I don't even know what this means. 

 

DECATHLON 2 

1:20 "Left rudder and departure. … And, we've got the visual again. Just to track away from the houses, mate."  [aircraft spinning] So? 

 

7T. This is irrelevant to stall spin accidents on takeoff. There is plenty of footage of that. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

1:29 "If we can save just one life, it will be worth making this series." 

 

8T. I hope that even less than that would make it worthwhile. The stall-spin man showed that injuries can be life-changing without being fatal. 

            9M. It would have been better to give the viewer credit for saving their own life, and the lives of their passengers, to motivate them to be the hero of their own story. 

 

1:38 FOXBAT 1 

"One, two, three. We've just lost over 10 knots."

 

10M. I only know what the one two three is about because I already know that the startle effect lasts three seconds. The video just demonstrated that someone loses 10 knots with startle with an engine failure, but if you did not already know that, you would not know from seeing this video. 

 

If we were only 200 ft [above ground level], look what we lost … we're in the ground already." "That's right." [Aircraft in controlled, horisontal flight.] 

 

11B. The tacit point being that hitting the ground is really bad and to be avoided at all costs. There are two ways of hitting the ground: travelling horizontally in controlled flight, and travelling vertically in a spin. The first type of hitting the ground is vastly preferential to the second type of hitting the ground. 

            12M.    The learning rule of primacy says that what you learn first you tend to learn best. And the video has just told the viewer that hitting the ground horisontal is the bad type of hitting the ground. In my view, this will make the student more likely to prioritize not hitting the ground by not pushing the stick forward enough. And make less likely to do what they should do, maintaining control of the aircraft. In my view, pilots should be taught that if there is a risk of LOC on takeoff, they need to head to the ground ASAP. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

"We hope that this series will help create a safer flight environment for out pilots."

 

13T. The environment is what is around you. Unless you are concerned about out of control planes landing on top of pilots, the only way that this statement makes literal sense is if the presenter specifically hope that pilots are safe as passengers. 

 

1:49 LOSS OF CONTROL TITLE SCREEN

 

2:03 BOB

The loss of control can be related to two separate issues. You can have a loss of control due to external factors, wind shear etc. Or can have loss of control due to simple misloading or the pilot mishandling of the controls themselves.

 

14T. That's three things. 

            15T. The issues are not separate, but related. Latent errors in one area will make actual errors in the other areas more likely to occur. 

 

"But when it comes to the normal general aviation application, you want to look at the idea of avoiding the situation which is likely to produce that outcome and ahh recognizing the onset early and avoiding it in the first place."

 

16M. The video never does that. 

 

2:26 VOICEOVER

Even the experienced pilots can be caught out by a loss of control.

 

2:32 STUCK CONTROLS

At the time of the accident, I would have been flying for 25 years. Probably had about 200 hours or more experience flying experience that particular aircraft and never had any issues with it. Between 

            I probably didn't even have time to think oh s-. It really did happen that quickly. So, I completed all the pre takeoff checks on the run, including controls full and free. 

            I said to the pilot in front 'Handing over.' She said 'Taking over'. The throttle was advanced. Ahh, once it was at full power, within a couple of seconds, I expected the stick to come forward, the stick did not come forward, so I questioned it. I said what are you doing. I did not even get to finish the question. I said what are you doing. She said "It won't move." There was not even any play, which was the bit that concerned me the most. 

    By the time that I... It started to lift the left wing, possibly because the pilot was still holding right rudder to keep in to keep it straight, which is the right thing to do. Because of that, it impacted on it's right wingtip. As soon as that happened my hand just moved forward and to the left. And then almost immediately after that, it hit on the undercarriage, the undercarriage folded and the aircraft ended up on its belly. Just goes to show how completely unaware. We were caught out. 

 

17T. Stuck controls are not a leading cause of crashing on takeoff. Engine power loss, and power on departure stalls are. 

            18M. The video never stated the basics: Engine power loss, and power on departure stalls are the basic causes of LOC on takeoff. The video never articulates that. 

            19M. "Handing over" and "taking over" are not standard phrases. If confusion about who is flying the plane was not still killing people, this would be a T. Yes, I know it's the pilot telling their story and this is not what you were emphasizing. Either edit it, get them to say it properly, or have a disclaimer. 

 

4:20 BOB

"The end result, though, is still a good example of what we've been saying. 

 

Emphasis added. Bob just told us he knows that it is not actually a good example of what we are saying. 

 

The airplane became airborne when it was not intended allow that to happen. And even ground effect can't help if you if you stuck in a tail-low attitude. It attempted to get airborne but umm immediately couldn't fly so it dropped a wing. But yeah, it was a shame to see such a nice little airplane in such a mess." 

 

20B. Each year people are killed trying to save aeroplane. Airplane safety advocates say over and over that the desire to save the airplane has led to the loss of life. My own view is that an aircraft that can get it's controls locked in spite of competent and correct maintenance, and have people not know about this, is best off wrecked. If they were doing stalls at 5000' and the controls got locked with full up elevator, they both would have both died. This way, owners of other such aircraft can be alerted to the problem. 

            

4:53 WHITE SHIRT

"Jeremy, as you said before, in the takeoff phase of flight, there's a lot going on. And pilots don't always see what's going on when when we takeoff. Slipstream effect, we've got procession, p forces and gyroscopic effect." 

 

21M. Slipstream effects, procession, p-forces and gyroscopic effects do not need to be mentioned here. The certainly don't need to be mentioned here and not explained. If you are going to mention them, explain them. 

            22B. What needs to be said, is that if an aircraft is in a power on climb, and slows down, and the rudder is not adjusted, it will yaw to the left. That's and one of the indications that the video alluded to but did not mention. 

 

5:05 GREY SHIRT

"As we start to lose visual reference to the natural horizon, we start to lose out situational awareness as to what the aircraft is doing. Okay? 

 

23T. No. As mentioned above. 

 

So, when the nose is above the horizon it is very, very easy to not be able to see the aircraft yawing which, which translated into rolling and putting us possibly in a situation where we don't want to be in. Yaw can be very subtle and very difficult to see, whereas seeing the aircraft bank or rolling is much, much easier to see. So, pilots naturally will control the roll but the actual problem is the aircraft yawing."  (demonstrated stick side to side) 

 

24T. Not being able to see over the nose is a tailwheel pilot problem, not a fundamental. 

            25 DANGEROUS. The speaker basically said that it is good to control bank with ailerons. We all know that's not what he meant but that is still what he said. The learning theory name for this is the curse of knowledge. If you know about something really, really well, it can make it hard to teach it

 

And of course all this is happening at high angle of attack, low airspeed and limited control. 

 

Lack of controllably. 

 

26T. The elevator should still work fine.

 

And we we're very quickly setting ourselves up into a loss of control in flight situation.

 

5:49 VOICEOVER

Ensuring that the aircraft is configured properly for takeoff is vital. However, there is something the pilot should have already considered before they start the engine.

 

27T. Videos are supposed to in a logical, chronological order. Preflight occurs before the flight. 

 

6:00 BOB

You do a preflight on your aeroplane, you walk around and look at it. You can't see where the centre of gravity is. It would be lovely if you had a red line of the fuselage. And you could go, 'Uh, oh my centre of gravity is too far back!' The big danger with centre of gravity problem is the fact that ahh you would get in the aeroplane and do your normal pre start checks and to you it would feel perfectly normal. You couldn’t fault it. You taxi out to the holding point, you do your run ups, whatever radio calls are required. You'd have no idea there is anything wrong, because on the ground, the aeroplane is sitting on its undercarriage. But once it becomes suspended under those two imaginary forces of lift and weight, ahh, the little arrows that instructors like to draw all over the board, once it becomes airborne, it's then that you chh, you realise the problem exists. 

 

28T. You should not train to do your runups at the holding point. It's T for a reason, okay

            29M. Lift and weight are not imaginary. This is the curse of knowledge as referred to above. 

            30T. There are specific reasons that C of G being too far back is a problem, related to the action of the elevator and centre of lift on the main wing. It might have been nice to have heard why.

 

6:56 NEIL SCHAEFFER

At the Caboolture airport, Neil Schaeffer talks about important considerations in the takeoff phase. Important point to note. As you lift that pressure off the nose wheel, the tendency of the p force for you to yaw left. Correct airspeed, positive. Correct attitude. Positive rate of climb. Runway centerline. 

 

31T. But if the engine quits, the attitude has to be lower. 

            32M. If the airplane slows because of getting out of ground effect, the angle of climb will be shallower and angle of attack for a given attitude will be higher. We are talking about causes of accidents, here. 

 

7:20 BLUE SHIRT 

The takeoff is a very low energy state for the aircraft. We are in a part of the flight envelope where we do not have much energy. We need to understand what out aircraft will do on takeoff, what it looks like and how we actually can control that. So, because of the fact that we have a propeller on the front of our aircraft, as you mentioned, we have p factor, we have slipstream, we have a gyroscopic effect, we pitch the nose up as we take off. All of these effects are going to cause the aircraft to yaw in one direction or the other. It does  depend on the design of the aircraft and the manu' the engine manufacturer. 

 

33T. Because airspeed is the most important element of energy here, you are better off just talking about airspeed, and not mentioning energy. It just complicates things. 

            34M. You actually can't fully understand what the aircraft will do if you climb out of ground effect with an engine out, because you can't practice it. You can't practice it at altitude because there is no ground effect, and you can't practice it low because it's dangerous, and you are not allowed to stop the engine anywhere anyway. It is better to tell the viewer that you will not have experienced the airplane like this before. 

 

7:53 DECATHLON

Roll, yaw. brake. Yep. 

 

35T. Irrelevant. Get some footage of LOC on takeoff accidents? 

 

8:00 BLUE SHIRT

That yaw for us can sometimes be difficult for us to to see, especially if the nose is above the horizon, so the aircraft actually will yaw and then roll in the same direction that it is yawing, okay? Now, the consideration for you on takeoff is that because we are at a high angle of attack, they the ailerons are not going to be as effective as they usually are, okay? And so we run the risk of actually getting ourselves into a loss of control in flight by using ailerons. Okay? At the end of the day, your feet are the only things that are going to going to fix this situation and the balance ball is going to tell you if you are doing the right thing or not.

 

36 DANGEROUS. This segment corrects earlier dangerous error (except it actually can't for reasons I will not explore.) But if you are yawing and rolling, you need to use the elevator even more than you need to use your rudder. 

 

8:50 ANOTHER BLUE SHIRT

I guess it comes down to how well the pilot is prepared. So, when a pilot goes ahh goes out for a flight, the takeoff is the first thing that happens. And it is not until they actually start the takeoff roll that they may not actually realised that they have prepared themselves properly for the flight that they are about to undertake. So, proper preparation in the takeoff phase is really important. 

    The second thing is as well that the takeoff involves a lot of changing energy, so you are going basically from a standstill into a flying state very, very quickly and if the energy of the aircraft is not managed appropriately, if the aircraft is out of balance, if it is overweight, if the weight and balance has not been done correctly, all those things can come back and bite the pilot very very quickly at low altitude with very little time to respond. 

 

37T. The takeoff is not the first thing that happens. 

            38T. The next sentence is incoherent. 

            39T. There must have been a better way of saying the second paragraph. 

 

9:30 BOB

It is really a matter of preserving the energy source that is giving you control in the first place, that is airspeed. So, the aeroplane has to become... we have to avoid the temptation at times to get the airplane airborne too early and fly it in ground effect. 

            As I have often said to people in commercial in aerodynamic classes, the ability to get airborne is there if you want to push it hard, you can actually force the airplane to get airborne in ground effect and then make an attempt to climb out ahh with insufficient airspeed to maintain a stable climb, and of course that is going to lead to loss of control, ahh eventually a stall. 

            One of the problems in that area I have always found, if I get airborne, if I do it in an aerodrome like here at Redcliffe for example,  we pretend that the strip is short so you don't introduce the psychological aspect of 'I really have to do it today' so a student can be lead to believe that it is really simple and basic, you just follow a couple of rules. The day he gets out to strip, and I'm talking about still legal as far as the p chart goes, but the limit of the p chart, very few people have that experience in their training, very few people are faced with the situation, when they are faced with that situation and they really do have to clear the gum trees at the end of the strip, there is a very strong temptation to try and force the aeroplane into the air early and that's the very worst thing to do. 

 

40T. Again, there is no operational definition of too early. 

            41T. RA-Aus planes do not have p charts. 

 

11:07 ORANGE JACKET

That's it, low low low. There's 60, 70 knots. And you go. 

 

42T. Irrelevant.

 

11:20 BLUE SHIRT

The problem with the loss of control is the stall, the unusual attitude, occurs when the pilot is not expecting it. The pilot will experience what is called startle and surprise. So, this startle and surprise is a breakdown of ahh of the cognitive ability of the pilot or causes the breakdown in the pilot to think clearly and basically makes them forget their their basic training. 

 

43M. Stalls do not occur at unusual attitudes. If the plane gets to an unusual attitude on takeoff, that is not because the pilot has lowered the nose on purpose, the plane is already going to crash. Look up the definition of unusual attitude. 

            44T. This is telling pilots that if they get a fright and it takes them a moment to think that they have forgotten their basic training and failed It would be better to tell pilots that a startle response of three seconds is normal, and that if they train well, they will remember their training just fine.  

 

11:40 WHITE FOXBAT

One two three . We've just lost over 10 knots. I've now lowered the nose. Look at our sink rate now. Yeah, that's right one thousand a feet right there. 

 

45B. Same problem as before. If you hit flat ground at a descent rate of 1000 feet per minute you will probably walk away. That is how one particular bush plane is landed on purpose. I can't remember it's name.  

 

11:55 WHITE SHIRT

Pilots often don't do what they have been trained to do, partly because of startle and surprise, but also when they are taught to fly they are taught to fly an attitude but they don't always correlate an attitude to an angle of attack.

            So particularly like when we are in a climbing phase of flight on takeoff, for example, if we have something like an engine failure, we may lower the nose but we haven't actually fixed the angle of attack problem. So it's actually important that we assertively move the controls forward, pitch the aircraft to a safe attitude, we would completely avoid that stall near the ground. 

 

This paragraph tries to undo the second dangerous mistake from earlier in the video, number 36. 

            46B. You need an operational definition of "assertive". This is a bad mistake because pushing the stick forward assertively is the one thing that will stop you dying.  

 

12:30 WHITE FOXBAT

If we were only 200 feet, look what we lost. We're in the ground already. That's right. 

 

47M. As mentioned before, there are worse things than flying into the ground. 

 

12:40 DARK BLUE SHIRT

So, what we need to do is understand how to train resilience within the pilot's training, train that resilience into the pilot how to recover from that startle surprise.

 

48M. Stop repeating yourself and tell us how. It's easy, actually. When you are away from the airport, visualize yourself pushing the stick forward until you have 20 degrees nose down. Before every flight, say out loud, "Whenever the engine stops, I'm lowering the nose 20 degrees, unless I've already got best glide of X knots." And do upset training. It's simple. There is no need to introduce psychobabble about resilience. 

 

12:50 BOB

It's a clear stall spin accident. It appears that the airplane has been lifted off the ground unnecessarily early considerably the space that is left. High nose attitude followed by a stall followed by a wing drop. 

 

49T. Operational definition of early, please. 

 

13:30 STALL SPIN MAN

I remember getting in the airplane, warming the airplane up, and how hot the day was. After that, I don't really remember much at all. The plane was 80 hp and a little heavier than the planes I was used to flying, so power to weight ratio was probably a little less than I was used to from the planes that I had taken off from there before. As I can see from the video, I scrubbed the airplane off the runway roughly about 200' of the runway and was in ground effect. And as I went over the valley, I lost my ground effect, and my assessment by watching the video, I'm assuming the airplane would maintain speed or gain speed. And I knew I was flying into crosswind from my right. But I thought the plane would be able to power through it. A lot of things went wrong, including you know the crosswind, you know the loss of ground effect, hot day. 

 

The plane went into about a 360 degree stall spin and impacted the ground. Oh. I don't recall anything after that. My ahh my son came down, shut the fuel off, which if I were caught in it and it caught fire, I wouldn't be here today. um, so, that was exceptionally lucky that happened. Um, was in the hospital about two months intensive care. I was unconscious about six days. Um, so, wheelchair for six months. It ahh broke multiple bones in my face, to my ribs, to about everywhere on my body, my back. I have a rod in my leg. At one point, they were going to amputate my right foot, but. So, it was a traumatic experience to say the last least.

 

50B. The problems were not what he said. The problem was that he lifted off too slow, did not maintain flying speed, did not recognise the yaw, did not slam the stick forward, and did not use his rudder. I don't care that he's an example and I utterly reject any notion that anything here is just to get people thinking. 

            

15:30 BOB

If I'm umm, taking off and I've forced the airplane to become early, your main thing with ground effect produces dramatic uhh reduction in drag in ahh in ahh induced drag. Ahh, and so the airplane behaves as if it will accelerate like mad. It feels really good while it's in roughly one to one and a half wing spans is usually put down as a figure in height. The problem then being that if the airplane promises that it's going to fly like mad, like a homesick angel, and they say, and the pilot encourages it to go, it gets about about one and a half wingspans and it seems like someone tied a parachute on the back. And all of a sudden, even though you have not done anything, all of a sudden the airspeed's dropping for no apparent reason umm because you are leaving, you you were getting benefit of ground affect, shouldn't be flying in that condition.  Ahh, so, the danger there is, of course, is that if the aeroplane loses sufficient speed it, speed is where lift comes from, the aeroplane settles back, in the worst case, back onto the runway but now you have just used another 200 m. 

 

The best paragraph in the video. 

 

51M. Settling back on the runway is far, far, far from the worst that can happen. 

 

17:00 VOICEOVER

Takeoff emergencies are a key area where we see loss of control events. Maintaining control energy in the aircraft is paramount, along with the correct actions and decisions. In the following example, we see how the pilot responds to the change of energy. 

 

52M. Speed, not energy. 

    53 DANGEROUS. Did I just watch an entire video about takeoff accidents and maintaining airspeed was barely mentioned? This is a curse of knowledge problem. 

            54T. Motherhood statement to end with. 

 

17:05 FOXXBAT 2. 

Good work getting your nose down. 

 

55M. Getting your nose down at cruise, in level flight, is totally different from getting your nose down when you are a) nose up and b) slow and c) slowing. 

 

17:10 VOICEOVER

But how easy is it for a pilot to become confused in an emergency situation?

 

56T. Motherhood.

 

17:20 FOXBAT 2. (Incomplete) 

Engine power, where are we going to go? Oh, one down below you. 

 

I'm going to land on my left. ... 

 

Alright. Lets get all the flap out. 

 

As we're committed, we're at 55 knots. Nose down, nose down, nose down, trim it down trim it down. Okay start turning. Lose height, the turn. 

    Now, because of the nature of this, if you need to need to use a little bit of power, that is fine. Okay, wings level. Okay, go straight in. 

 

56M. Getting your nose down at cruise, in level flight, is totally different from getting your nose down when you are a) nose up and b) slow and c) slowing. 

 

17:55 BOB

The pilot of any experience level, faced with the sudden ahh loss of control or potential loss of control situation is ahh immediate the  immediate reaction is to be startled ahh  and at a time when you cannot afford to have hesitation and you have to have an ingrained reaction to it really. And ahh ahh, when I was training students on a regular basis, umm, we used to make habit ahh of in flight, this is not so much in takeoff, but in flight, or even on the ground because often the student will oblige with providing you with an example of loss of control so you can do something about it then. But in flight, we used to give students regular practice at recovering. There's very old catch phrase that was used for years: PAT, power, attitude, trim. So, if you want to establish any given performance condition, then you apply the power that is appropriate, you adopt the attitude that is appropriate, and when you are satisfied that things are satisfactory, you apply appropriate trin. Loss of control can be addressed the same way. 

 

57T. You can afford to have hesitation. You have to. Hesitating for three seconds is to be expected. If you can't afford three seconds, you need to fly differently.

            58M. PAT in cruise is different from taking off. Refer mistake 56. 

            59T. The section before the PAT section is incoherent. 

 

STUCK CONTROLS (Incomplete.) 

The preflight is essential. And, if you are operating from rough and unprepared trips, you should, in fact, you should be doing a post-flight check. Because of debris being thrown up. So, check the aircraft after each check. The preflight check is one of the most important things that you can ever do. The fact that we survived uninjured is a plus and that there is lessons and learnings come from it. If we are able to share that learning with other pilots, I see that has a huge benefit. 

 

60M. Introducing nonstandard ways of checking aircraft is not sensible. 

            61T. Leave out references to checking the aircraft on rough strips, please. 

 

19:50 GREY SHIRT

It absolutely comes down to knowledge of yourself and of your own aircraft. What your aircraft is going to do. If you are not sure, there are a lot of very qualified instructors who can show you in a safe controlled manner. 

 

STALL SPIN MAN

If I could go back, I would of course make the decision not to take the plane up there that day. Haul it down to my runway on a trailer that you know has more runway. I got complacent. I flew a lot of unimproved runways and thought I could, you know, take the plane off there, an I could handle about anything. If you have to think more than once, twice about whether or not it is safe to do the flight, my suggestion is to do something different, either find a different day, different runway or don't do it at all. 

            My hope is talking about this accident and that it will help one person to make a better decision than I did or a better decision that some of the pilots that have had this happen to them and were not as fortunate as me, so that they don't end up where I'm at because I'm every day, every minute of every day, dealing with the pain of walking, um. My face being numb to um the injuries I'm sustained will be with me the rest of my life and it's not something I wish on anyone.

 

62B. Thinking twice is fine. The important thing is to think. You could think for half an hour and then check with your instructor. That is much better than just bailing. The speaker implies that it's all up to your thinking. It isn't. 

 

21:37 WHITE SHIRT

I'd like to thank all the pilots who were brave enough to put their stories out there. And our experts and our instructors for the information they've shared with us today. We can see, in the takeoff phase of flight, how easy it is for a loss of control event to occur and how important things like weight, balance, performance and conditions before every takeoff.

            We have to overcome the temptation to try and force the aircraft into the air before it's ready. And also if we encounter an emergency situation, overcome the human factor to not recognise to to freeze or not react correctly with the right control actions, um to avoid a loss of control, particularly uh after an engine failure after takeoff. Any one of these factors can cause us to have a loss of control in takeoff phase of flight. So it is important that we recognise them and avoid them before they result a loss of control. Make sure you understand the forces that are going to affect you in the takeoff phases of flight. Know how to manage them and more importantly, know how to recognise when they are not going the way you want them to go. Remember, takeoffs are optional. 

     Join us for episode two where we look at loss of control in flight. 

 

63T. All the pilots? There were two. 

            64T. The video did not show how important weight and balance was important. It was mentioned, but never explained. 

            65T. No definition of forcing the aircraft off the ground, again. 

            66M. Summaries that are of a middling level of abstraction are a problem. They need to either a) be specific and concrete things to do (and/or b) tie everything together, in an overarching, more abstract way.)

 

(Into)

 

23:03 WRITTEN MATERIAL 

It is not a matter of if you might find yourself in a situation that might lead to a loss of control but when. 

 

Every pilot should discuss pathways to improve their skills with a local flight school and ensure that they have ongoing training in loss of control prevention. 

 

For more information visit: 

 

67. There should have been something pithy and memorable here. 

 

ADDITIONAL

 

68M. The credits say who wrote the video. The problem is, no one wrote the video. I don't buy the idea that they wanted spontaneous convos. There are ways of having your cake and eating it too with this issue. 

69T. The volume levels between the different segments that I had to adjust the volume between segment. 

Is this the longest post in the history of the forum 😁. You make good points though. 

[BrendAn]

When I read all this stuff and watch the videos I wonder why I sold my gyro. Life is much simpler in a gyro.

 

I do have a question though.

When doing stalls I find just releasing the stick brings the plane back to stable flight without doing anything else. The instructor tells me to gently push the nose down and add a bit of throttle but I find this difficult to do smoothly because the left wing drops so quick I tend to over compensate. If the plane recovers just by releasing the stick why do we have to do anything else.

[jackc]

The  video is supported by RAA with the already documented errors, they are our peak body AND regulator?

Yet, IF they catch  us stuffing  up anywhere, they are happy to  ream us 😞.  Over time I have been involved with Aviation, have heard many stories, some from multiple sources about some past history etc, that have been nasty to certain people who have simply want to enjoying flying.  Seems like they at times have been like dogs with bones, they want the  last chew. 😞 

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 hours ago, BrendAn said:

When I read all this stuff and watch the videos I wonder why I sold my gyro. Life is much simpler in a gyro.

 

I do have a question though.

When doing stalls I find just releasing the stick brings the plane back to stable flight without doing anything else. The instructor tells me to gently push the nose down and add a bit of throttle but I find this difficult to do smoothly because the left wing drops so quick I tend to over compensate. If the plane recovers just by releasing the stick why do we have to do anything else.

I have 230 hours, so am not an expert. I view the answer as follows. 

 

1) If you have stalled inadvertently, you might be about to drop a wing, or you might have already dropped a wing. If you wait too long , you might enter autorotation and enter a spin no matter what you do. No one seems to know just where a stall ends and a spin begins (which is amazing IMHO). Pushing the nose forward increases the likelihood that you will break the stall in time. 

 

2) When you are climbing, the aircraft is pitched up, so you have to rotate the aircraft further before you break the stall.

 

3) When the engine *actually* fails, you will have less elevator authority than you are used to. That will slow recovery. 

 

4) If you over correct on takeoff, you will bellyflop and wreck the plane. If you under correct, you spin and die. 

 

5) For some reason, in real life, people always under correct, spin and die. You never see people overcorrecting, getting 20 degrees nose down, accelerating, pulling out and having a secondary stall as the bellyflop back on the runway. 

 

Someone else on this forum did say that one is best off releasing/easing the stick and flying with a normal attitude (hope Im not misquoting)  They also have the advantage over me of having actually had an engine failure on takeoff and successfully managing it! So, my jam the stick forward view is NOT universally accepted. But, given what happens in real life take off accidents (described above) I’m sure anyone can see my logic. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[Garfly]

6 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Someone else on this forum did say that one is best off releasing/easing the stick and flying with a normal attitude (hope Im not misquoting)  They also have the advantage over me of having actually had an engine failure on takeoff and successfully managing it! So, my jam the stick forward view is NOT universally accepted. But, given what happens in real life take off accidents (described above) I’m sure anyone can see my logic. 

 

Regarding EFATO, at least, I'd be surprised to see anyone contradicting your assertion that the Big Push is what's needed. There's a fire-hose of advice online along these lines.  For example, this Pilot Proficiency column in Flying Mag (US) from Jan 2011:

 

https://www.flyingmag.com/technique-proficiency-human-factor-big-push-improbable-turn/

 

Excerpt:

 

"What is required almost immediately after the engine fails while in the initial climb, let’s say between 50 feet and wherever you reduce the pitch attitude to cruise climb, is a surprisingly forceful push forward on the controls to an even more surprisingly nose-low attitude in order to keep the airplane flying. In an airplane with high drag, such as a biplane, you may need to push hard enough to feel light in the seat. Even in a low-drag, streamlined airplane, the push required will be close to that. At altitude a push like this would feel very strange, but would not be that scary or difficult to accomplish. However, following an engine failure on takeoff, you are not at altitude; you are only a few hundred feet above the ground. You would have to overcome every cell in your brain screaming at you to hold the wheel back to stop the descent. Many pilots have given in to that desperate plea, resulting in an almost immediate stall/spin following the engine failure."

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Garfly

[Thruster88]

8 hours ago, BrendAn said:

When I read all this stuff and watch the videos I wonder why I sold my gyro. Life is much simpler in a gyro.

 

I do have a question though.

When doing stalls I find just releasing the stick brings the plane back to stable flight without doing anything else. The instructor tells me to gently push the nose down and add a bit of throttle but I find this difficult to do smoothly because the left wing drops so quick I tend to over compensate. If the plane recovers just by releasing the stick why do we have to do anything else.

Just releasing the stick to recover from an INTENTIONAL stall is fine, you the pilot have your head in the game.

 

If the aircraft stalls due to the pilots total lack of situational awareness then a positive push forward is warranted, it needs to be an instinctive response, no disadvantage getting light in the seat. I have been chipped by instructors during AFR's for being to aggressive during stall recovery, each to there own I guess.  

[Blueadventures]

13 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

The first RA-Aus video about LOC is here, https://cust48209.au.v6send.net/ch/48209/9jpgx/2896578/FSnY5qxZ1DUMhm5yEOwSTMki2qSTeNpryZF.hMcO.html. I counted 69 errors, most of them trivial, three of them dangerous. The mistakes are numbered. The dangerous errors are numbers 25, 36 and 53. 36 is the worst. The transcript is not perfect but good enough. The bit before the title screen has material missing. The letter after the numbers signify the following: T for trivial nitpicking. M for meaningful. B bad. DANGEROUS for dangerous. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

Every year in sport and general aviation, loss of control are the single biggest factor in aviation accidents

 

BOB TAIT

Recognizing the onset early and avoiding it in the first place. 

 

1T. Wrong order. 

2M. The video never thoroughly examines recognizing early signs of LOC on takeoff. 

 

STUCK CONTROLS

0:28. "By the time I'd got it, the aircraft had become airborne in the three-point attitude. I probably didn't even have time to think oh shit"  

 

3M. Stuck controls are not really a LOC accident. They are not what takeoff LOC accidents are all about. Putting this first is bizarre. 

 

0:30 STALL SPIN MAN

The plane went into a 360 degree accident. 

 

04:00 BOB

 "High nose attitude, it's a clear stall-spin." High nose attitude and then a stall. 

 

DARK BLUE SHIRT

0:47 "As we start to lose visual reference to the natural horizon, we start to lose out situational awareness as to what the aircraft is doing."

 

4T. You only lose situational awareness for what is in front of the nose. If you lose situational awareness for yaw, that is because of poor technique. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

In this three part series we examine... We look at the primary, we look at contribute to contributing factors and we talk to real pilots, subject matter experts, and we delve into situations and how to avoid these types of accidents. 

 

5T. You don't delve. 

 

WHITE DECATHLON

1:14 "We've used too much rudder to keep the aircraft in balance on a full climb power, for example. And now the aeroplane is very slowly. Now I've gone over" 

 

6M. I don't even know what this means. 

 

DECATHLON 2 

1:20 "Left rudder and departure. … And, we've got the visual again. Just to track away from the houses, mate."  [aircraft spinning] So? 

 

7T. This is irrelevant to stall spin accidents on takeoff. There is plenty of footage of that. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

1:29 "If we can save just one life, it will be worth making this series." 

 

8T. I hope that even less than that would make it worthwhile. The stall-spin man showed that injuries can be life-changing without being fatal. 

            9M. It would have been better to give the viewer credit for saving their own life, and the lives of their passengers, to motivate them to be the hero of their own story. 

 

1:38 FOXBAT 1 

"One, two, three. We've just lost over 10 knots."

 

10M. I only know what the one two three is about because I already know that the startle effect lasts three seconds. The video just demonstrated that someone loses 10 knots with startle with an engine failure, but if you did not already know that, you would not know from seeing this video. 

 

If we were only 200 ft [above ground level], look what we lost … we're in the ground already." "That's right." [Aircraft in controlled, horisontal flight.] 

 

11B. The tacit point being that hitting the ground is really bad and to be avoided at all costs. There are two ways of hitting the ground: travelling horizontally in controlled flight, and travelling vertically in a spin. The first type of hitting the ground is vastly preferential to the second type of hitting the ground. 

            12M.    The learning rule of primacy says that what you learn first you tend to learn best. And the video has just told the viewer that hitting the ground horisontal is the bad type of hitting the ground. In my view, this will make the student more likely to prioritize not hitting the ground by not pushing the stick forward enough. And make less likely to do what they should do, maintaining control of the aircraft. In my view, pilots should be taught that if there is a risk of LOC on takeoff, they need to head to the ground ASAP. 

 

WHITE SHIRT

"We hope that this series will help create a safer flight environment for out pilots."

 

13T. The environment is what is around you. Unless you are concerned about out of control planes landing on top of pilots, the only way that this statement makes literal sense is if the presenter specifically hope that pilots are safe as passengers. 

 

1:49 LOSS OF CONTROL TITLE SCREEN

 

2:03 BOB

The loss of control can be related to two separate issues. You can have a loss of control due to external factors, wind shear etc. Or can have loss of control due to simple misloading or the pilot mishandling of the controls themselves.

 

14T. That's three things. 

            15T. The issues are not separate, but related. Latent errors in one area will make actual errors in the other areas more likely to occur. 

 

"But when it comes to the normal general aviation application, you want to look at the idea of avoiding the situation which is likely to produce that outcome and ahh recognizing the onset early and avoiding it in the first place."

 

16M. The video never does that. 

 

2:26 VOICEOVER

Even the experienced pilots can be caught out by a loss of control.

 

2:32 STUCK CONTROLS

At the time of the accident, I would have been flying for 25 years. Probably had about 200 hours or more experience flying experience that particular aircraft and never had any issues with it. Between 

            I probably didn't even have time to think oh s-. It really did happen that quickly. So, I completed all the pre takeoff checks on the run, including controls full and free. 

            I said to the pilot in front 'Handing over.' She said 'Taking over'. The throttle was advanced. Ahh, once it was at full power, within a couple of seconds, I expected the stick to come forward, the stick did not come forward, so I questioned it. I said what are you doing. I did not even get to finish the question. I said what are you doing. She said "It won't move." There was not even any play, which was the bit that concerned me the most. 

    By the time that I... It started to lift the left wing, possibly because the pilot was still holding right rudder to keep in to keep it straight, which is the right thing to do. Because of that, it impacted on it's right wingtip. As soon as that happened my hand just moved forward and to the left. And then almost immediately after that, it hit on the undercarriage, the undercarriage folded and the aircraft ended up on its belly. Just goes to show how completely unaware. We were caught out. 

 

17T. Stuck controls are not a leading cause of crashing on takeoff. Engine power loss, and power on departure stalls are. 

            18M. The video never stated the basics: Engine power loss, and power on departure stalls are the basic causes of LOC on takeoff. The video never articulates that. 

            19M. "Handing over" and "taking over" are not standard phrases. If confusion about who is flying the plane was not still killing people, this would be a T. Yes, I know it's the pilot telling their story and this is not what you were emphasizing. Either edit it, get them to say it properly, or have a disclaimer. 

 

4:20 BOB

"The end result, though, is still a good example of what we've been saying. 

 

Emphasis added. Bob just told us he knows that it is not actually a good example of what we are saying. 

 

The airplane became airborne when it was not intended allow that to happen. And even ground effect can't help if you if you stuck in a tail-low attitude. It attempted to get airborne but umm immediately couldn't fly so it dropped a wing. But yeah, it was a shame to see such a nice little airplane in such a mess." 

 

20B. Each year people are killed trying to save aeroplane. Airplane safety advocates say over and over that the desire to save the airplane has led to the loss of life. My own view is that an aircraft that can get it's controls locked in spite of competent and correct maintenance, and have people not know about this, is best off wrecked. If they were doing stalls at 5000' and the controls got locked with full up elevator, they both would have both died. This way, owners of other such aircraft can be alerted to the problem. 

            

4:53 WHITE SHIRT

"Jeremy, as you said before, in the takeoff phase of flight, there's a lot going on. And pilots don't always see what's going on when when we takeoff. Slipstream effect, we've got procession, p forces and gyroscopic effect." 

 

21M. Slipstream effects, procession, p-forces and gyroscopic effects do not need to be mentioned here. The certainly don't need to be mentioned here and not explained. If you are going to mention them, explain them. 

            22B. What needs to be said, is that if an aircraft is in a power on climb, and slows down, and the rudder is not adjusted, it will yaw to the left. That's and one of the indications that the video alluded to but did not mention. 

 

5:05 GREY SHIRT

"As we start to lose visual reference to the natural horizon, we start to lose out situational awareness as to what the aircraft is doing. Okay? 

 

23T. No. As mentioned above. 

 

So, when the nose is above the horizon it is very, very easy to not be able to see the aircraft yawing which, which translated into rolling and putting us possibly in a situation where we don't want to be in. Yaw can be very subtle and very difficult to see, whereas seeing the aircraft bank or rolling is much, much easier to see. So, pilots naturally will control the roll but the actual problem is the aircraft yawing."  (demonstrated stick side to side) 

 

24T. Not being able to see over the nose is a tailwheel pilot problem, not a fundamental. 

            25 DANGEROUS. The speaker basically said that it is good to control bank with ailerons. We all know that's not what he meant but that is still what he said. The learning theory name for this is the curse of knowledge. If you know about something really, really well, it can make it hard to teach it

 

And of course all this is happening at high angle of attack, low airspeed and limited control. 

 

Lack of controllably. 

 

26T. The elevator should still work fine.

 

And we we're very quickly setting ourselves up into a loss of control in flight situation.

 

5:49 VOICEOVER

Ensuring that the aircraft is configured properly for takeoff is vital. However, there is something the pilot should have already considered before they start the engine.

 

27T. Videos are supposed to in a logical, chronological order. Preflight occurs before the flight. 

 

6:00 BOB

You do a preflight on your aeroplane, you walk around and look at it. You can't see where the centre of gravity is. It would be lovely if you had a red line of the fuselage. And you could go, 'Uh, oh my centre of gravity is too far back!' The big danger with centre of gravity problem is the fact that ahh you would get in the aeroplane and do your normal pre start checks and to you it would feel perfectly normal. You couldn’t fault it. You taxi out to the holding point, you do your run ups, whatever radio calls are required. You'd have no idea there is anything wrong, because on the ground, the aeroplane is sitting on its undercarriage. But once it becomes suspended under those two imaginary forces of lift and weight, ahh, the little arrows that instructors like to draw all over the board, once it becomes airborne, it's then that you chh, you realise the problem exists. 

 

28T. You should not train to do your runups at the holding point. It's T for a reason, okay

            29M. Lift and weight are not imaginary. This is the curse of knowledge as referred to above. 

            30T. There are specific reasons that C of G being too far back is a problem, related to the action of the elevator and centre of lift on the main wing. It might have been nice to have heard why.

 

6:56 NEIL SCHAEFFER

At the Caboolture airport, Neil Schaeffer talks about important considerations in the takeoff phase. Important point to note. As you lift that pressure off the nose wheel, the tendency of the p force for you to yaw left. Correct airspeed, positive. Correct attitude. Positive rate of climb. Runway centerline. 

 

31T. But if the engine quits, the attitude has to be lower. 

            32M. If the airplane slows because of getting out of ground effect, the angle of climb will be shallower and angle of attack for a given attitude will be higher. We are talking about causes of accidents, here. 

 

7:20 BLUE SHIRT 

The takeoff is a very low energy state for the aircraft. We are in a part of the flight envelope where we do not have much energy. We need to understand what out aircraft will do on takeoff, what it looks like and how we actually can control that. So, because of the fact that we have a propeller on the front of our aircraft, as you mentioned, we have p factor, we have slipstream, we have a gyroscopic effect, we pitch the nose up as we take off. All of these effects are going to cause the aircraft to yaw in one direction or the other. It does  depend on the design of the aircraft and the manu' the engine manufacturer. 

 

33T. Because airspeed is the most important element of energy here, you are better off just talking about airspeed, and not mentioning energy. It just complicates things. 

            34M. You actually can't fully understand what the aircraft will do if you climb out of ground effect with an engine out, because you can't practice it. You can't practice it at altitude because there is no ground effect, and you can't practice it low because it's dangerous, and you are not allowed to stop the engine anywhere anyway. It is better to tell the viewer that you will not have experienced the airplane like this before. 

 

7:53 DECATHLON

Roll, yaw. brake. Yep. 

 

35T. Irrelevant. Get some footage of LOC on takeoff accidents? 

 

8:00 BLUE SHIRT

That yaw for us can sometimes be difficult for us to to see, especially if the nose is above the horizon, so the aircraft actually will yaw and then roll in the same direction that it is yawing, okay? Now, the consideration for you on takeoff is that because we are at a high angle of attack, they the ailerons are not going to be as effective as they usually are, okay? And so we run the risk of actually getting ourselves into a loss of control in flight by using ailerons. Okay? At the end of the day, your feet are the only things that are going to going to fix this situation and the balance ball is going to tell you if you are doing the right thing or not.

 

36 DANGEROUS. This segment corrects earlier dangerous error (except it actually can't for reasons I will not explore.) But if you are yawing and rolling, you need to use the elevator even more than you need to use your rudder. 

 

8:50 ANOTHER BLUE SHIRT

I guess it comes down to how well the pilot is prepared. So, when a pilot goes ahh goes out for a flight, the takeoff is the first thing that happens. And it is not until they actually start the takeoff roll that they may not actually realised that they have prepared themselves properly for the flight that they are about to undertake. So, proper preparation in the takeoff phase is really important. 

    The second thing is as well that the takeoff involves a lot of changing energy, so you are going basically from a standstill into a flying state very, very quickly and if the energy of the aircraft is not managed appropriately, if the aircraft is out of balance, if it is overweight, if the weight and balance has not been done correctly, all those things can come back and bite the pilot very very quickly at low altitude with very little time to respond. 

 

37T. The takeoff is not the first thing that happens. 

            38T. The next sentence is incoherent. 

            39T. There must have been a better way of saying the second paragraph. 

 

9:30 BOB

It is really a matter of preserving the energy source that is giving you control in the first place, that is airspeed. So, the aeroplane has to become... we have to avoid the temptation at times to get the airplane airborne too early and fly it in ground effect. 

            As I have often said to people in commercial in aerodynamic classes, the ability to get airborne is there if you want to push it hard, you can actually force the airplane to get airborne in ground effect and then make an attempt to climb out ahh with insufficient airspeed to maintain a stable climb, and of course that is going to lead to loss of control, ahh eventually a stall. 

            One of the problems in that area I have always found, if I get airborne, if I do it in an aerodrome like here at Redcliffe for example,  we pretend that the strip is short so you don't introduce the psychological aspect of 'I really have to do it today' so a student can be lead to believe that it is really simple and basic, you just follow a couple of rules. The day he gets out to strip, and I'm talking about still legal as far as the p chart goes, but the limit of the p chart, very few people have that experience in their training, very few people are faced with the situation, when they are faced with that situation and they really do have to clear the gum trees at the end of the strip, there is a very strong temptation to try and force the aeroplane into the air early and that's the very worst thing to do. 

 

40T. Again, there is no operational definition of too early. 

            41T. RA-Aus planes do not have p charts. 

 

11:07 ORANGE JACKET

That's it, low low low. There's 60, 70 knots. And you go. 

 

42T. Irrelevant.

 

11:20 BLUE SHIRT

The problem with the loss of control is the stall, the unusual attitude, occurs when the pilot is not expecting it. The pilot will experience what is called startle and surprise. So, this startle and surprise is a breakdown of ahh of the cognitive ability of the pilot or causes the breakdown in the pilot to think clearly and basically makes them forget their their basic training. 

 

43M. Stalls do not occur at unusual attitudes. If the plane gets to an unusual attitude on takeoff, that is not because the pilot has lowered the nose on purpose, the plane is already going to crash. Look up the definition of unusual attitude. 

            44T. This is telling pilots that if they get a fright and it takes them a moment to think that they have forgotten their basic training and failed It would be better to tell pilots that a startle response of three seconds is normal, and that if they train well, they will remember their training just fine.  

 

11:40 WHITE FOXBAT

One two three . We've just lost over 10 knots. I've now lowered the nose. Look at our sink rate now. Yeah, that's right one thousand a feet right there. 

 

45B. Same problem as before. If you hit flat ground at a descent rate of 1000 feet per minute you will probably walk away. That is how one particular bush plane is landed on purpose. I can't remember it's name.  

 

11:55 WHITE SHIRT

Pilots often don't do what they have been trained to do, partly because of startle and surprise, but also when they are taught to fly they are taught to fly an attitude but they don't always correlate an attitude to an angle of attack.

            So particularly like when we are in a climbing phase of flight on takeoff, for example, if we have something like an engine failure, we may lower the nose but we haven't actually fixed the angle of attack problem. So it's actually important that we assertively move the controls forward, pitch the aircraft to a safe attitude, we would completely avoid that stall near the ground. 

 

This paragraph tries to undo the second dangerous mistake from earlier in the video, number 36. 

            46B. You need an operational definition of "assertive". This is a bad mistake because pushing the stick forward assertively is the one thing that will stop you dying.  

 

12:30 WHITE FOXBAT

If we were only 200 feet, look what we lost. We're in the ground already. That's right. 

 

47M. As mentioned before, there are worse things than flying into the ground. 

 

12:40 DARK BLUE SHIRT

So, what we need to do is understand how to train resilience within the pilot's training, train that resilience into the pilot how to recover from that startle surprise.

 

48M. Stop repeating yourself and tell us how. It's easy, actually. When you are away from the airport, visualize yourself pushing the stick forward until you have 20 degrees nose down. Before every flight, say out loud, "Whenever the engine stops, I'm lowering the nose 20 degrees, unless I've already got best glide of X knots." And do upset training. It's simple. There is no need to introduce psychobabble about resilience. 

 

12:50 BOB

It's a clear stall spin accident. It appears that the airplane has been lifted off the ground unnecessarily early considerably the space that is left. High nose attitude followed by a stall followed by a wing drop. 

 

49T. Operational definition of early, please. 

 

13:30 STALL SPIN MAN

I remember getting in the airplane, warming the airplane up, and how hot the day was. After that, I don't really remember much at all. The plane was 80 hp and a little heavier than the planes I was used to flying, so power to weight ratio was probably a little less than I was used to from the planes that I had taken off from there before. As I can see from the video, I scrubbed the airplane off the runway roughly about 200' of the runway and was in ground effect. And as I went over the valley, I lost my ground effect, and my assessment by watching the video, I'm assuming the airplane would maintain speed or gain speed. And I knew I was flying into crosswind from my right. But I thought the plane would be able to power through it. A lot of things went wrong, including you know the crosswind, you know the loss of ground effect, hot day. 

 

The plane went into about a 360 degree stall spin and impacted the ground. Oh. I don't recall anything after that. My ahh my son came down, shut the fuel off, which if I were caught in it and it caught fire, I wouldn't be here today. um, so, that was exceptionally lucky that happened. Um, was in the hospital about two months intensive care. I was unconscious about six days. Um, so, wheelchair for six months. It ahh broke multiple bones in my face, to my ribs, to about everywhere on my body, my back. I have a rod in my leg. At one point, they were going to amputate my right foot, but. So, it was a traumatic experience to say the last least.

 

50B. The problems were not what he said. The problem was that he lifted off too slow, did not maintain flying speed, did not recognise the yaw, did not slam the stick forward, and did not use his rudder. I don't care that he's an example and I utterly reject any notion that anything here is just to get people thinking. 

            

15:30 BOB

If I'm umm, taking off and I've forced the airplane to become early, your main thing with ground effect produces dramatic uhh reduction in drag in ahh in ahh induced drag. Ahh, and so the airplane behaves as if it will accelerate like mad. It feels really good while it's in roughly one to one and a half wing spans is usually put down as a figure in height. The problem then being that if the airplane promises that it's going to fly like mad, like a homesick angel, and they say, and the pilot encourages it to go, it gets about about one and a half wingspans and it seems like someone tied a parachute on the back. And all of a sudden, even though you have not done anything, all of a sudden the airspeed's dropping for no apparent reason umm because you are leaving, you you were getting benefit of ground affect, shouldn't be flying in that condition.  Ahh, so, the danger there is, of course, is that if the aeroplane loses sufficient speed it, speed is where lift comes from, the aeroplane settles back, in the worst case, back onto the runway but now you have just used another 200 m. 

 

The best paragraph in the video. 

 

51M. Settling back on the runway is far, far, far from the worst that can happen. 

 

17:00 VOICEOVER

Takeoff emergencies are a key area where we see loss of control events. Maintaining control energy in the aircraft is paramount, along with the correct actions and decisions. In the following example, we see how the pilot responds to the change of energy. 

 

52M. Speed, not energy. 

    53 DANGEROUS. Did I just watch an entire video about takeoff accidents and maintaining airspeed was barely mentioned? This is a curse of knowledge problem. 

            54T. Motherhood statement to end with. 

 

17:05 FOXXBAT 2. 

Good work getting your nose down. 

 

55M. Getting your nose down at cruise, in level flight, is totally different from getting your nose down when you are a) nose up and b) slow and c) slowing. 

 

17:10 VOICEOVER

But how easy is it for a pilot to become confused in an emergency situation?

 

56T. Motherhood.

 

17:20 FOXBAT 2. (Incomplete) 

Engine power, where are we going to go? Oh, one down below you. 

 

I'm going to land on my left. ... 

 

Alright. Lets get all the flap out. 

 

As we're committed, we're at 55 knots. Nose down, nose down, nose down, trim it down trim it down. Okay start turning. Lose height, the turn. 

    Now, because of the nature of this, if you need to need to use a little bit of power, that is fine. Okay, wings level. Okay, go straight in. 

 

56M. Getting your nose down at cruise, in level flight, is totally different from getting your nose down when you are a) nose up and b) slow and c) slowing. 

 

17:55 BOB

The pilot of any experience level, faced with the sudden ahh loss of control or potential loss of control situation is ahh immediate the  immediate reaction is to be startled ahh  and at a time when you cannot afford to have hesitation and you have to have an ingrained reaction to it really. And ahh ahh, when I was training students on a regular basis, umm, we used to make habit ahh of in flight, this is not so much in takeoff, but in flight, or even on the ground because often the student will oblige with providing you with an example of loss of control so you can do something about it then. But in flight, we used to give students regular practice at recovering. There's very old catch phrase that was used for years: PAT, power, attitude, trim. So, if you want to establish any given performance condition, then you apply the power that is appropriate, you adopt the attitude that is appropriate, and when you are satisfied that things are satisfactory, you apply appropriate trin. Loss of control can be addressed the same way. 

 

57T. You can afford to have hesitation. You have to. Hesitating for three seconds is to be expected. If you can't afford three seconds, you need to fly differently.

            58M. PAT in cruise is different from taking off. Refer mistake 56. 

            59T. The section before the PAT section is incoherent. 

 

STUCK CONTROLS (Incomplete.) 

The preflight is essential. And, if you are operating from rough and unprepared trips, you should, in fact, you should be doing a post-flight check. Because of debris being thrown up. So, check the aircraft after each check. The preflight check is one of the most important things that you can ever do. The fact that we survived uninjured is a plus and that there is lessons and learnings come from it. If we are able to share that learning with other pilots, I see that has a huge benefit. 

 

60M. Introducing nonstandard ways of checking aircraft is not sensible. 

            61T. Leave out references to checking the aircraft on rough strips, please. 

 

19:50 GREY SHIRT

It absolutely comes down to knowledge of yourself and of your own aircraft. What your aircraft is going to do. If you are not sure, there are a lot of very qualified instructors who can show you in a safe controlled manner. 

 

STALL SPIN MAN

If I could go back, I would of course make the decision not to take the plane up there that day. Haul it down to my runway on a trailer that you know has more runway. I got complacent. I flew a lot of unimproved runways and thought I could, you know, take the plane off there, an I could handle about anything. If you have to think more than once, twice about whether or not it is safe to do the flight, my suggestion is to do something different, either find a different day, different runway or don't do it at all. 

            My hope is talking about this accident and that it will help one person to make a better decision than I did or a better decision that some of the pilots that have had this happen to them and were not as fortunate as me, so that they don't end up where I'm at because I'm every day, every minute of every day, dealing with the pain of walking, um. My face being numb to um the injuries I'm sustained will be with me the rest of my life and it's not something I wish on anyone.

 

62B. Thinking twice is fine. The important thing is to think. You could think for half an hour and then check with your instructor. That is much better than just bailing. The speaker implies that it's all up to your thinking. It isn't. 

 

21:37 WHITE SHIRT

I'd like to thank all the pilots who were brave enough to put their stories out there. And our experts and our instructors for the information they've shared with us today. We can see, in the takeoff phase of flight, how easy it is for a loss of control event to occur and how important things like weight, balance, performance and conditions before every takeoff.

            We have to overcome the temptation to try and force the aircraft into the air before it's ready. And also if we encounter an emergency situation, overcome the human factor to not recognise to to freeze or not react correctly with the right control actions, um to avoid a loss of control, particularly uh after an engine failure after takeoff. Any one of these factors can cause us to have a loss of control in takeoff phase of flight. So it is important that we recognise them and avoid them before they result a loss of control. Make sure you understand the forces that are going to affect you in the takeoff phases of flight. Know how to manage them and more importantly, know how to recognise when they are not going the way you want them to go. Remember, takeoffs are optional. 

     Join us for episode two where we look at loss of control in flight. 

 

63T. All the pilots? There were two. 

            64T. The video did not show how important weight and balance was important. It was mentioned, but never explained. 

            65T. No definition of forcing the aircraft off the ground, again. 

            66M. Summaries that are of a middling level of abstraction are a problem. They need to either a) be specific and concrete things to do (and/or b) tie everything together, in an overarching, more abstract way.)

 

(Into)

 

23:03 WRITTEN MATERIAL 

It is not a matter of if you might find yourself in a situation that might lead to a loss of control but when. 

 

Every pilot should discuss pathways to improve their skills with a local flight school and ensure that they have ongoing training in loss of control prevention. 

 

For more information visit: 

 

67. There should have been something pithy and memorable here. 

 

ADDITIONAL

 

68M. The credits say who wrote the video. The problem is, no one wrote the video. I don't buy the idea that they wanted spontaneous convos. There are ways of having your cake and eating it too with this issue. 

69T. The volume levels between the different segments that I had to adjust the volume between segment. 

Thanks mate.  I have not viewed the video as yet.  Your comments are appreciated.  Are you sending to the CEO as feedback.  They should pull the presentation and redo.  Give you at least a free year's membership as a thank you.  May boarder on a reportable matter to CASA re bad flight skills advice.

[peterg]

14 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

The first RA-Aus video about LOC is here, https://cust48209.au.v6send.net/ch/48209/9jpgx/2896578/FSnY5qxZ1DUMhm5yEOwSTMki2qSTeNpryZF.hMcO.html. I counted 69 errors, most of them trivial, three of them dangerous. The mistakes are numbered.

I too had an early dinner so that I could tune in to what I assumed would be a valuable session - I assumed incorrectly.

 

The first alert for me was one of the presenters. I had previously been made aware of two ground accidents he has had (LOC?) - both easily avoidable and one resulting in serious damage to another aircraft. I have also witnessed him undertake some potentially "life shortening" (not just my opinion) flying. 

 

He is sadly afflicted with "dangerous arrogance" and was added to my "List" some time ago - reserved for those I expect to see in the nightly news.

 

When I had finished watching the video my assessment was that it was unprofessional, of little to no value and a waste of money - not sure who put up the funds but hopefully not the members.

 

Project management, due diligence and instructional design would have helped as would pre-production/useability review.

 

LOC is a valuable topic and there is plenty of material to consider - accidents both on the ground (taxiing, landing, take-off) and in the air. 

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

Sad the the video turned out this way 😞. Obviously not proof checked for accuracy by a reputable person with knowledge.

RAAus need to step up their game and the first thing would be to fix the video probably and re release ASAP, making sure the original is buried forever…….

[APenNameAndThatA]

3 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

Regarding EFATO, at least, I'd be surprised to see anyone contradicting your assertion that the Big Push is what's needed. There's a fire-hose of advice online along these lines.  For example, this Pilot Proficiency column in Flying Mag (US) from Jan 2011:

 

https://www.flyingmag.com/technique-proficiency-human-factor-big-push-improbable-turn/

 

Excerpt:

 

"What is required almost immediately after the engine fails while in the initial climb, let’s say between 50 feet and wherever you reduce the pitch attitude to cruise climb, is a surprisingly forceful push forward on the controls to an even more surprisingly nose-low attitude in order to keep the airplane flying. In an airplane with high drag, such as a biplane, you may need to push hard enough to feel light in the seat. Even in a low-drag, streamlined airplane, the push required will be close to that. At altitude a push like this would feel very strange, but would not be that scary or difficult to accomplish. However, following an engine failure on takeoff, you are not at altitude; you are only a few hundred feet above the ground. You would have to overcome every cell in your brain screaming at you to hold the wheel back to stop the descent. Many pilots have given in to that desperate plea, resulting in an almost immediate stall/spin following the engine failure."

 

 

 

 

 

There is more wisdom in that one paragraph than in the whole Raaus video. You have to be willing to dive like you are willing to bellyflop the runway. So, pilots need to NOT be told not to hit the ground. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Just releasing the stick to recover from an INTENTIONAL stall is fine, you the pilot have your head in the game.

 

If the aircraft stalls due to the pilots total lack of situational awareness then a positive push forward is warranted, it needs to be an instinctive response, no disadvantage getting light in the seat. I have been chipped by instructors during AFR's for being to aggressive during stall recovery, each to there own I guess.  

People chipping people for stall recoveries that lose height is my pet hate. Except pet hates are supposed to be about less serious things. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, peterg said:

I too had an early dinner so that I could tune in to what I assumed would be a valuable session - I assumed incorrectly.

 

The first alert for me was one of the presenters. I had previously been made aware of two ground accidents he has had (LOC?) - both easily avoidable and one resulting in serious damage to another aircraft. I have also witnessed him undertake some potentially "life shortening" (not just my opinion) flying. 

 

He is sadly afflicted with "dangerous arrogance" and was added to my "List" some time ago - reserved for those I expect to see in the nightly news.

 

When I had finished watching the video my assessment was that it was unprofessional, of little to no value and a waste of money - not sure who put up the funds but hopefully not the members.

 

Project management, due diligence and instructional design would have helped as would pre-production/useability review.

 

LOC is a valuable topic and there is plenty of material to consider - accidents both on the ground (taxiing, landing, take-off) and in the air. 

 

 

 

 

I was going to ask RaAus how much money the vid cost but thought that asking that might make it less likely they would listen to me. Given the quote from the email announcing the ‘premiere’

 

”countless hours scripting, filming, and editing, to create what I believe to be one of the best Loss of Control resources available anywhere in the world”

 

Im not sure it was cheap. 🤦‍♂️

[APenNameAndThatA]

13 hours ago, BrendAn said:

Is this the longest post in the history of the forum 😁. You make good points though. 

11000 words my word processor said, but it feels shorter. It destroyed my brain.  

Edited November 5, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[peterg]

5 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

”countless hours scripting, filming, and editing, to create what I believe to be one of the best Loss of Control resources available anywhere in the world”

Truly frightening & delusional.

 

[Garfly]

12 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

There is more wisdom in that one paragraph than in the whole Raaus video. You have to be willing to dive like you are willing to bellyflop the runway. So, pilots need to NOT be told not to hit the ground. 

Yeah, that bit gets covered in the next paragraph:

 

"So now let’s say you actually managed to do the big push. The nose is very low but the airplane is still flying with at least a small margin above stall speed. If you were really low when the engine failed (up to about 300 feet), there is no question about what comes next. The airplane is descending rapidly and the ground is coming up equally fast, so the only option available is a slight turn if necessary to avoid any serious objects directly ahead of you, followed by a pull just before hitting the ground to flare or at least try to cushion the force of the impact. While the landing gear may be damaged or even collapse, the odds are that you and your passengers will have few if any injuries."

 

https://www.flyingmag.com/technique-proficiency-human-factor-big-push-improbable-turn/

[Garfly]

 

47 minutes ago, peterg said:

Truly frightening & delusional.

 

 

But it's not as if RAAus is clueless as to all the actually good LOC resources "available anywhere in the world".

 

In fact they did a great job of (cheaply) curating a bunch of them in this excellent Safety Month piece two years back called "Just DON'T Pull Back":

 

https://www.raa.asn.au/our-organisation/safety/nationalsafetymonth/week-4/just-dont-pull-back/

 

Given the title, they could also have included this one (which we've watched and discussed here many times). 

 

THIS is what effective air-safety communication looks like:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Garfly

[djpacro]

Good discussion. Great work APenNameAndThatA

Quote

17T. Stuck controls are not a leading cause of crashing on takeoff.

It is a fairly common cause, however.

Quote

"Handing over" and "taking over" are not standard phrases.

They are. Refer CASA's Flight Instructor Manual.

[Garfly]

3 minutes ago, djpacro said:

Quote

"Handing over" and "taking over" are not standard phrases.

They are. Refer CASA's Flight Instructor Manual.

True, and I like it much better than "My aeroplane" and "Your aeroplane".

(Except where the two pilots happen to be co-owners of the aircraft concerned.  ;- )