Apparently midair at Gympie at 3pm today, 9/11/22

[Jabiru7252]

17 hours ago, onetrack said:

Media reports state the victims were an 80-year-old Caboolture man and a 77-year-old Glenwood man. No identification of the aircraft, rego numbers are blanked out in videos, and it's almost impossible to tell the make of aircraft, but I'd have to guess it's an ultralight. Doesn't seem to be any mention of the ATSB getting involved at this point. This is certainly a real tragedy, and just another reminder to stay aware of other aircraft in your area.

 

https://www.9news.com.au/national/fatal-aircraft-mid-air-crash-queensland-gympie-kybong/e32ae0b9-225f-4fad-9a98-131bee6f97ee

At 77 years and 80 years of age, 'staying aware' becomes pretty dismal for most. I gave away flying at 66 because I'm starting to do stupid things and forgetting to do not-stupid things.

[Roundsounds]

5 minutes ago, Jabiru7252 said:

At 77 years and 80 years of age, 'staying aware' becomes pretty dismal for most. I gave away flying at 66 because I'm starting to do stupid things and forgetting to do not-stupid things.

I’ll bet you’re still driving

[BrendAn]

3 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

I’ll bet you’re still driving

There's a huge difference between flying and driving.

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

The tow aircraft report has been proven to be just media inaccuracy. The evidence seems pretty simple to me - two aircraft that fell out of the sky, totally destroyed by an MAC.

The exact reasons for the MAC are certainly not clear, but given the age of the victims (if accurately reported), then a medical episode leading to incapacity is quite possible - but regardless, even if that was the case, then the other pilot should be totally alert, and on the lookout for the other aircraft, and still be able to avoid it, even if it wasn't tracking as advertised.

I guess if one pilot had been incapacitated for some time, and gave no radio calls, that also might help explain it.

 

With both pilots deceased and no CVR's or FDR's, the investigation is totally reliant on anyone in the area on frequency who heard and remembered important calls - or ground witnesses who actually saw the aircraft.

With one witness reporting they simply heard a loud bang, and two damaged aircraft "fell out of the clouds", then visibility levels is going to be another important question.

 

At that age they probably just didn't see each other.

[facthunter]

Being over cautious is not a  real problem. Do what you feel is best. Not everybody ages the same. I've seen people play a good game of tennis at 84 but that's not everybody. Cars and planes are not the same but the stress driving in the city is  at a high level, because of the stupid and rude things others do and how fast lights go  from amber to red. Nev

[facthunter]

Short term  memory, orientation, situational awareness and reaction time affect flying and sight, hearing middle ear balance, Leans etc.  Nev

[onetrack]

The media has corrected the age of the pilots to 70 and 80, from 77 and 80. The ATSB has confirmed they will not be investigating, as the aircraft and crash are outside their remit, and they have to balance their investigation funds against the general public safety interest. The ball is in RA-Aus's court now, so don't hold your breath expecting a quality crash investigation.

 

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/transport/atsb-wont-probe-qld-aircraft-collision-c-8817152

[pylon500]

2 hours ago, BrendAn said:

There's a huge difference between flying and driving.

Definitely, driving is FAR more dangerous and taxing on concentration.

[facthunter]

Wisdom must be a plus for older pilots because those who showed little are removed from the equation. OTHER people are more likely to kill you on the road and NONE of it due to your  faults. . Hills only hit you in self defence.... Nev

[jackc]

Try riding motorcycles in a city environment……stress level wise I would be better off flying.

[Blueadventures]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

The media has corrected the age of the pilots to 70 and 80, from 77 and 80. The ATSB has confirmed they will not be investigating, as the aircraft and crash are outside their remit, and they have to balance their investigation funds against the general public safety interest. The ball is in RA-Aus's court now, so don't hold your breath expecting a quality crash investigation.

 

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/transport/atsb-wont-probe-qld-aircraft-collision-c-8817152

Also GFA would be involved.

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, pylon500 said:

Definitely, driving is FAR more dangerous and taxing on concentration.

I doubt that.

[Teckair]

Apparently it was not the tug aircraft. News saying it was a ultralight Sabre. Near airports you really need to be reporting on the correct frequency.

[jackc]

Not to mention FLARM and ADS-B don’t work together in Australia where in Europe they do? 

Also, nearly all gliders are primarily white in colour, sometimes rather hard  to see……

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, pylon500 said:

Definitely, driving is FAR more dangerous and taxing on concentration.

It might seem that way, but not in the research I did in 2018:

 

Road Fatalities

1200 fatalities in 1 billion missions  = 1 in 833,333 missions              

 

Recreational Aircraft fatalities

10 per 200,000 missions = 1 in 20,000 missions      (Source: RAA, 3500 aircraft, 200,000 hours/year)

 

You are 42 times more likely to die in a recreational aircraft.

 

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

It might seem that way, but not in the research I did in 2018:

 

Road Fatalities

1200 fatalities in 1 billion missions  = 1 in 833,333 missions              

 

Recreational Aircraft fatalities

10 per 200,000 missions = 1 in 20,000 missions      (Source: RAA, 3500 aircraft, 200,000 hours/year)

 

You are 42 times more likely to die in a recreational aircraft.

 

 

It's generally accepted that driving is, overall, safer than recreational flying.  Even proper stats seem to back that up.

 

But the comparison discussed here is specifically about age-related alertness - when "staying aware", avoiding "stupid things" and maintaining "concentration" are crucial.  But if you're barrelling down the highway, any random 3 secs of eyes/mind off the job will very likely end in instant disaster.  Flying is not quite as perilous as that, moment to moment, at least. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bosi72]

10 hours ago, jackc said:

Not to mention FLARM and ADS-B don’t work together in Australia where in Europe they do? 

Also, nearly all gliders are primarily white in colour, sometimes rather hard  to see……

FLARM operates on a different frequencies from ADSB everywhere in the World, however they(FLARM) have proprietary encryption system which makes them visible only to other FLARM devices, unless they give you the encryption keys.

 

I can only assume a politics(and $$) as reasons behind as to why can't we see the gliders in Australia on Skyecho2 devices.

 

Skyecho2 is capable of receiving FLARM, but that option is grayed. A simple firmware update could enable this functionality.

[kgwilson]

SE2 can see all FLARM equipped aircraft in Europe as their frequency is different. It would seem the market here is not large enough for them to add the Australian FLARM frequency. Neither of the aircraft in this incident may have had FLARM or ADSB.

[bull]

.Could be something like this maybe....

 

[kgwilson]

The tow aircraft was not involved in this crash.

[jackc]

Global Radio Frequency Management starts here, then trickles down to all countries.

 

https://www.itu.int/en/Pages/default.aspx

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, bull said:

.Could be something like this maybe....

 

Shame he did not go more into that he released 500 ft below the plan of 2,000 feet (Would have been a briefing point for competitors).   In the past I would only release early if in a strong thermal and on a non-competitive day.  By releasing early and under 2,000 feet placed him in the launch on tow climb zone, so not a very safety wise decision in my opinion.  That was a hole in the swish cheese of his making.  Thanks for sharing.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Blueadventures

[kiwiaviator]

4 hours ago, kgwilson said:

SE2 can see all FLARM equipped aircraft in Europe as their frequency is different. It would seem the market here is not large enough for them to add the Australian FLARM frequency. Neither of the aircraft in this incident may have had FLARM or ADSB.

avtraffic.com provides audible FLARM info. As long as you understand its limitations (eg. internet based, latency, etc) it is another great tool in the box and allows you to keep those eyeballs looking out most of the time. Yes, its not much good if the glider doesn't have it or its not turned on..

Edited November 11, 2022 by kiwiaviator

[Bosi72]

Maybe gliding community should switch to open ADSB instead of licence based FLARM ?

 

Something to discuss between RAA and GFA.

 

[Cosmick]

19 hours ago, Teckair said:

Apparently it was not the tug aircraft. News saying it was a ultralight Sabre. Near airports you really need to be reporting on the correct frequency.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-11/tight-knit-community-devastated-by-mid-air-crash/101642356