Jabiru7252 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 17 hours ago, onetrack said: Media reports state the victims were an 80-year-old Caboolture man and a 77-year-old Glenwood man. No identification of the aircraft, rego numbers are blanked out in videos, and it's almost impossible to tell the make of aircraft, but I'd have to guess it's an ultralight. Doesn't seem to be any mention of the ATSB getting involved at this point. This is certainly a real tragedy, and just another reminder to stay aware of other aircraft in your area. https://www.9news.com.au/national/fatal-aircraft-mid-air-crash-queensland-gympie-kybong/e32ae0b9-225f-4fad-9a98-131bee6f97ee At 77 years and 80 years of age, 'staying aware' becomes pretty dismal for most. I gave away flying at 66 because I'm starting to do stupid things and forgetting to do not-stupid things. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Jabiru7252 said: At 77 years and 80 years of age, 'staying aware' becomes pretty dismal for most. I gave away flying at 66 because I'm starting to do stupid things and forgetting to do not-stupid things. I’ll bet you’re still driving 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Roundsounds said: I’ll bet you’re still driving There's a huge difference between flying and driving. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 3 hours ago, onetrack said: The tow aircraft report has been proven to be just media inaccuracy. The evidence seems pretty simple to me - two aircraft that fell out of the sky, totally destroyed by an MAC. The exact reasons for the MAC are certainly not clear, but given the age of the victims (if accurately reported), then a medical episode leading to incapacity is quite possible - but regardless, even if that was the case, then the other pilot should be totally alert, and on the lookout for the other aircraft, and still be able to avoid it, even if it wasn't tracking as advertised. I guess if one pilot had been incapacitated for some time, and gave no radio calls, that also might help explain it. With both pilots deceased and no CVR's or FDR's, the investigation is totally reliant on anyone in the area on frequency who heard and remembered important calls - or ground witnesses who actually saw the aircraft. With one witness reporting they simply heard a loud bang, and two damaged aircraft "fell out of the clouds", then visibility levels is going to be another important question. At that age they probably just didn't see each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Being over cautious is not a real problem. Do what you feel is best. Not everybody ages the same. I've seen people play a good game of tennis at 84 but that's not everybody. Cars and planes are not the same but the stress driving in the city is at a high level, because of the stupid and rude things others do and how fast lights go from amber to red. Nev 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Short term memory, orientation, situational awareness and reaction time affect flying and sight, hearing middle ear balance, Leans etc. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 The media has corrected the age of the pilots to 70 and 80, from 77 and 80. The ATSB has confirmed they will not be investigating, as the aircraft and crash are outside their remit, and they have to balance their investigation funds against the general public safety interest. The ball is in RA-Aus's court now, so don't hold your breath expecting a quality crash investigation. https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/transport/atsb-wont-probe-qld-aircraft-collision-c-8817152 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 2 hours ago, BrendAn said: There's a huge difference between flying and driving. Definitely, driving is FAR more dangerous and taxing on concentration. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Wisdom must be a plus for older pilots because those who showed little are removed from the equation. OTHER people are more likely to kill you on the road and NONE of it due to your faults. . Hills only hit you in self defence.... Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Try riding motorcycles in a city environment……stress level wise I would be better off flying. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 2 hours ago, onetrack said: The media has corrected the age of the pilots to 70 and 80, from 77 and 80. The ATSB has confirmed they will not be investigating, as the aircraft and crash are outside their remit, and they have to balance their investigation funds against the general public safety interest. The ball is in RA-Aus's court now, so don't hold your breath expecting a quality crash investigation. https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/transport/atsb-wont-probe-qld-aircraft-collision-c-8817152 Also GFA would be involved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 1 hour ago, pylon500 said: Definitely, driving is FAR more dangerous and taxing on concentration. I doubt that. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Apparently it was not the tug aircraft. News saying it was a ultralight Sabre. Near airports you really need to be reporting on the correct frequency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Not to mention FLARM and ADS-B don’t work together in Australia where in Europe they do? Also, nearly all gliders are primarily white in colour, sometimes rather hard to see…… 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 2 hours ago, pylon500 said: Definitely, driving is FAR more dangerous and taxing on concentration. It might seem that way, but not in the research I did in 2018: Road Fatalities 1200 fatalities in 1 billion missions = 1 in 833,333 missions Recreational Aircraft fatalities 10 per 200,000 missions = 1 in 20,000 missions (Source: RAA, 3500 aircraft, 200,000 hours/year) You are 42 times more likely to die in a recreational aircraft. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 2 hours ago, turboplanner said: It might seem that way, but not in the research I did in 2018: Road Fatalities 1200 fatalities in 1 billion missions = 1 in 833,333 missions Recreational Aircraft fatalities 10 per 200,000 missions = 1 in 20,000 missions (Source: RAA, 3500 aircraft, 200,000 hours/year) You are 42 times more likely to die in a recreational aircraft. It's generally accepted that driving is, overall, safer than recreational flying. Even proper stats seem to back that up. But the comparison discussed here is specifically about age-related alertness - when "staying aware", avoiding "stupid things" and maintaining "concentration" are crucial. But if you're barrelling down the highway, any random 3 secs of eyes/mind off the job will very likely end in instant disaster. Flying is not quite as perilous as that, moment to moment, at least. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosi72 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 10 hours ago, jackc said: Not to mention FLARM and ADS-B don’t work together in Australia where in Europe they do? Also, nearly all gliders are primarily white in colour, sometimes rather hard to see…… FLARM operates on a different frequencies from ADSB everywhere in the World, however they(FLARM) have proprietary encryption system which makes them visible only to other FLARM devices, unless they give you the encryption keys. I can only assume a politics(and $$) as reasons behind as to why can't we see the gliders in Australia on Skyecho2 devices. Skyecho2 is capable of receiving FLARM, but that option is grayed. A simple firmware update could enable this functionality. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 SE2 can see all FLARM equipped aircraft in Europe as their frequency is different. It would seem the market here is not large enough for them to add the Australian FLARM frequency. Neither of the aircraft in this incident may have had FLARM or ADSB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 .Could be something like this maybe.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 The tow aircraft was not involved in this crash. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Global Radio Frequency Management starts here, then trickles down to all countries. https://www.itu.int/en/Pages/default.aspx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, bull said: .Could be something like this maybe.... Shame he did not go more into that he released 500 ft below the plan of 2,000 feet (Would have been a briefing point for competitors). In the past I would only release early if in a strong thermal and on a non-competitive day. By releasing early and under 2,000 feet placed him in the launch on tow climb zone, so not a very safety wise decision in my opinion. That was a hole in the swish cheese of his making. Thanks for sharing. Edited November 10, 2022 by Blueadventures 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiaviator Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, kgwilson said: SE2 can see all FLARM equipped aircraft in Europe as their frequency is different. It would seem the market here is not large enough for them to add the Australian FLARM frequency. Neither of the aircraft in this incident may have had FLARM or ADSB. avtraffic.com provides audible FLARM info. As long as you understand its limitations (eg. internet based, latency, etc) it is another great tool in the box and allows you to keep those eyeballs looking out most of the time. Yes, its not much good if the glider doesn't have it or its not turned on.. Edited November 11, 2022 by kiwiaviator 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosi72 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 Maybe gliding community should switch to open ADSB instead of licence based FLARM ? Something to discuss between RAA and GFA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmick Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 19 hours ago, Teckair said: Apparently it was not the tug aircraft. News saying it was a ultralight Sabre. Near airports you really need to be reporting on the correct frequency. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-11/tight-knit-community-devastated-by-mid-air-crash/101642356 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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