Apparently midair at Gympie at 3pm today, 9/11/22

[Cosmick]

Gympie is a common waypoint for aircraft traveling north from Brisbane, Caboolture, Redcliffe and Caloundra being west of Maroochydore airspace and has active local traffic.
The accident apparently occurred 16km (9nm) from Gympie at altitude. If the Sabre was transiting the Pilot would possibly just have switched to ctaf from area. A glider at same altitude does not offer much of a profile and at possibly 100+ knots closing speed……… my 2 cents. 

[poteroo]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:15 PM, Jabiru7252 said:

At 77 years and 80 years of age, 'staying aware' becomes pretty dismal for most. I gave away flying at 66 because I'm starting to do stupid things and forgetting to do not-stupid things.

We need to consider each pilots experience ahead of just age. A long term, high TT pilot would rarely, rarely, break their good flight discipline: a result of years of real VFR experience. FWIW, my take is that one or the other aircraft was changing level and may not have called it. But, there are many ways to have an aviation accident and none of them novel. RIP.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Cosmick said:

Gympie is a common waypoint for aircraft traveling north from Brisbane, Caboolture, Redcliffe and Caloundra being west of Maroochydore airspace and has active local traffic.
The accident apparently occurred 16km (9nm) from Gympie at altitude. If the Sabre was transiting the Pilot would possibly just have switched to ctaf from area. A glider at same altitude does not offer much of a profile and at possibly 100+ knots closing speed……… my 2 cents. 

A white glider would be hard to see.

If the Sabre was inbound he may have been busy doing a few things including woking out the radio frequencies nd circuit; if he had been on a long flight, that's always an issue around that point.

 

After a couple of stuff ups, I've always made a point at about 20 miles out after a cross country flight that could have been as long as three hours of sitting up straight in the seat, clearing my head and preparing for the approach so I'm not scrambling for info and trying to find the airfield, the radio etc. Just that deliberate wake up has worked for me.

 

There is also the witness comments that they appeared to fall out of the cloud, so assuming broken cloud, that may have obscured one.

Edited November 11, 2022 by turboplanner

[Garfly]

Maybe it would have been a good idea for CASA to provide SkyEcho2s (or similar) free-of-charge to all aircraft operators without ADSB (while continuing to subsidise certified models) and then proceed to make ADSB IN/OUT (of some kind) compulsory for all flying machines (as it is, pretty much, in the US already).

 

 

[jackc]

Sounds logical to me, but people will say WHY should ADS-B be compulsory when some people only fly in low traffic areas?  Should it only be in certain high traffic areas only?  I checked the cost of FLARM units and they were costly, in the order  of $3000 or so?  

[Garfly]

42 minutes ago, jackc said:

Sounds logical to me, but people will say WHY should ADS-B be compulsory when some people only fly in low traffic areas?  Should it only be in certain high traffic areas only?  I checked the cost of FLARM units and they were costly, in the order  of $3000 or so?  

Yeah, it might be complicated to implement but still, it really is a shame that midair tragedies keep happening when low cost tech is available to help avert them. 

 

Of course, we know nothing of the whys and wherefores of this latest accident but in regard to the terrible Mangalore midair of 2020, this was in the final ATSB report:

 

"The ATSB also strongly encourages the fitment of ADS‑B transmitting, receiving and display devices as they significantly assist the identification and avoidance of conflicting traffic. The continuous positional information that ADS‑B provides can highlight a developing situation many minutes before it becomes hazardous – a significant improvement on both point‑in‑time radio traffic advice and ‘see‑and‑avoid’. The ATSB also notes that ADS‑B receivers, suitable for use on aircraft operating under both the instrument or visual flight rules, are currently available within Australia at low cost and can be used in aircraft without any additional regulatory approval or expense."

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2020/aair/ao-2020-012

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Garfly

[Carbon Canary]

Cost/benefit of ‘new’ technology is in the eye of the beholder to a large degree. In low traffic areas, its quite possible it just adds extra weight to the aircraft and removes weight from your wallet.  However, I suspect ADS-B will eventually become mandatory in high traffic areas….and ‘eventually’ may be sooner than we think.
 

One risk scenario in low traffic areas is flying the magenta line between two locations without displacement left or right of track.  You may be in the middle of nowhere, but another aircraft is on exactly the same or reciprocal track as you. EFB’s may help in identifying other aircraft - if the aircraft are fitted with the appropriate tech. Ultimately all this tech and EFBs cost money and it comes down to our personal acceptance of risk and what we are prepared to pay to reduce the risk.

 

Dare I mention BRS ?  I was in Germany a few weeks ago where BRS is mandatory in LSAs. A long time German pilot said he now wouldn’t let his children drive in a car without airbags, and he views BRS in LSAs in the same vein. Cost/benefit is a personal calculation, sometimes biased by regulation.

[jackc]

This will be the start of arguments between peak bodies, CASA will get in the middle of it and…..3 years later nothing will have been done and then age of pilots will add to the points scoring in support of various ideas…..  

[jackc]

Mention retro fitment of BRS?  RAAus just go ‘ballistic’ over that 🙂. Been there once and decided to simply buy a parachute I now have.  Plane falls apart? Catches fire etc? I am OUT the door hoping parachute does it’s job……

[Garfly]

11 minutes ago, Carbon Canary said:

Cost/benefit of ‘new’ technology is in the eye of the beholder to a large degree. In low traffic areas, its quite possible it just adds extra weight to the aircraft and removes weight from your wallet.  However, I suspect ADS-B will eventually become mandatory in high traffic areas….and ‘eventually’ may be sooner than we think.

True enough, but the SE2 weighs 160 grams and would cost $0 under the full subsidy plan. ($500 under present arrangements).

 

And you make a good case for having one even in low (not 'no') traffic areas which just adds to the case the ATSB makes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Garfly

[jackc]

I simply bought my SE2 and paid full price…….don’t care about waiting for subsidy, it was a piece of safety equipment I wanted, regardless.  Safety will always come at a price, my motorcycle helmets were in the region of $900, my brains are worth a lot to me…….IF i won’t pay the price for good safety equipment…….I won’t undertake the relevant activity.

[kgwilson]

The cost of upgrading Mode C transponders to mode S with the installation of ADSB out equipment was ridiculously high at  $5-6,000.00 installed. The Skyecho 2 was conceived by some ex RAF pilots/electronics engineers & the Uavionix company set up in Montana in the US. They now have a raft of innovative navigation equipment. The US mandated all aircraft to be installed with ADSB by I think 2020 but they had to extend the timeframe. They also came up with their own unique frequencies so SE2 will not work in the US.

 

FLARM functionality was added in 2018 for the UK & Europe but Australian compliance (ADSB) was not added till 2020. Adding the Aus FLARM frequency would only require a firmware upgrade but the biggest problem would be certification and compliance costs. In other words CASA.

 

SE2 is small, portable, weighs only 200 grams and is ADSB in and out & with the current rebate scheme costs only $500.00. Local GA pilots who have spent 6k for ADSB out only are also buying them. They just disable ADSB out on the unit. It will interface to any number of NAV software products including Avplan & OZ runways as well as free software such as Enroute Flight Nav & Airmate. I fly with mine always. I am amazed at the traffic I see that I had no idea was probably there before. I have never had a conflict. Other traffic shows on my Nav system as green (no conflict), yellow (possible conflict) but a fair way off and red (change course now). Even with its low power traffic up to 40NM or even more away can be seen.

 

They are never going to be fully subsidised, so buy one now while you can still get one for 1/2 price.

Edited November 11, 2022 by kgwilson

[Garfly]

6 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

They are never going to be fully subsidised, so buy one now while you can still get one for 1/2 price.

Yeah, true. That was only me musing on what could've (should've?) been. 

[BrendAn]

42 minutes ago, jackc said:

Mention retro fitment of BRS?  RAAus just go ‘ballistic’ over that 🙂. Been there once and decided to simply buy a parachute I now have.  Plane falls apart? Catches fire etc? I am OUT the door hoping parachute does it’s job……

I have thought about that but getting my fat arse out of a Jabiru in a hurry would be a mission. Then I thought the jab is never going to break unless something hits it. I don't think a ballistic chute would be much fun with the plane on fire either.

With the sky echo anyone see you on Oz runways is that right.  Like if I had one and put ozrunways on my wife's phone could she see where I am 

Edited November 11, 2022 by BrendAn

[kgwilson]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

I have thought about that but getting my fat arse out of a Jabiru in a hurry would be a mission. Then I thought the jab is never going to break unless something hits it. I don't think a ballistic chute would be much fun with the plane on fire either.

With the sky echo anyone see you on Oz runways is that right. 

No, only if you have the premium version of Ozrunways which is pretty poor given free Nav systems have the functionality.

[BrendAn]

21 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

No, only if you have the premium version of Ozrunways which is pretty poor given free Nav systems have the functionality.

Thanks kg. What one would you recommend. 

[Garfly]

53 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

With the sky echo anyone see you on Oz runways is that right. 

Yes, you would show up on anyone's OzRWYs (Premium) - or other EFB - as long as the iPad/tablet is being fed by an ADSB-IN device, such as the Uavionix PING ( IN-Only, $400) or another SkyEcho2 (IN and OUT, $1200, less the subsidy.) 

 

See some info here:

 

https://www.ozrunways.com/store/adsb/

 

But you should show up, also, on the installed cockpit traffic displays of most commercial aircraft, all of which have ADSB-IN (and OUT).  And, of course, they, in turn would show up on your iPad/tablet by way of the IN function of your SkyEcho2.

 

There are other traffic awareness systems in use - including OzRWYS and AVPlan's own cell tower based ones, and the offerings of the, very good, AvTraffic app. which, by the way, incorporates FLARM.  But all these suffer from time delays in the cell tower system (latency) and other issues.  They are not in the same league as the true aircraft to aircraft communication offered by ADSB.

See here:  https://avtraffic.com/

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Garfly

[kgwilson]

23 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Thanks kg. What one would you recommend. 

Try Enroute Flight Planning. Works on anything (phone/tablet IOS or Android) Simple, Free and very useable. Created by a bunch of German Aviation University students & is constantly being upgraded but they have avoided adding lots of fancy unnecessary features. It is a bit like back in the 70s when VCRs came out. Everyone bought the ones with the most features & then only used the basic functions.

[Garfly]

3 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Try Enroute Flight Planning. Works on anything (phone/tablet IOS or Android) Simple, Free and very useable. Created by a bunch of German Aviation University students & is constantly being upgraded but they have avoided adding lots of fancy unnecessary features. It is a bit like back in the 70s when VCRs came out. Everyone bought the ones with the most features & then only used the basic functions.

Sounds like an interesting app.  Definitely worth a look.

But you'd want to have a good look at all the features of the local EFBs first, with their NAIPS integration, their automatic updates of all charts and databases etc. and even their tight integration of the uAvionix ADSB devices, before you decided on what is and isn't a necessary feature for your own operation.

[Maritime_Ev]

9 hours ago, Cosmick said:

Gympie is a common waypoint for aircraft traveling north from Brisbane, Caboolture, Redcliffe and Caloundra being west of Maroochydore airspace and has active local traffic.
The accident apparently occurred 16km (9nm) from Gympie at altitude. If the Sabre was transiting the Pilot would possibly just have switched to ctaf from area. A glider at same altitude does not offer much of a profile and at possibly 100+ knots closing speed……… my 2 cents. 

Like the other sunshine coast class G airfields (YCAB, YCDR) the circuit at Gympie gets very hectic at times, especially when the gliding club is active. It is not unsual to have multiple LSA/GA students doing circuits mixed with arriving aeroplanes of all specifications and the ocasional helicopter, while at the same time have gliders launching and recovering from the left/right grass.

 

And the gliders do not seem to have great radios in them (and being gliders they sometimes come from non-standard angles that you might be be looking for) which doesn't help the see and avoid in the circuit. However when you're approaching (or in) the circuit you'd be very much aware of this looking for traffic, the LSA pilot was a local too as I understand, so he was certainly aware of the glider ops. Still a combination of approach angles, a  bit of sun glare, a cockpit distraction and an unreasonable dose of bad luck and it could happen to anyone.

 

Of course if this happened outside the circuit area (perhaps above it?) it becomes a matter of non-allerted see & avoid and "big sky", with a (logically) lower level of vigiliance. They may not have been on the same frequency (CTAF, Area or gliding specific) and regardless wouldn't have been broadcasting. In that case it would have just been a matter of sheer bad luck.

 

NB. Not sure about where this happened exactly, but Kybong is about 16km from Gympie proper so they may well have both been in the circuit area.

[jackc]

It came to me from a third party of some authority that the Glider pilot was on the radio making all the correct calls during his flight, the other aircraft was not heard communicating at all, no calls were heard at all?   One could only assume he was on a different frequency maybe?  As I said, hearsay only……

[Thruster88]

There are 1287 casa VH registered gliders in Australia according to this report. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/australian-aircraft-activity-2020.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiSiN26g6f7AhXG9XMBHUXqCpsQFnoECAwQBg&usg=AOvVaw3UB5ZQclmDnioLkpVgsvS4

 

Gov could give them all a SkyEcho2 for a mere $1.3 million. It is great they have FLARM but limited value for the other 95% of airspace users.

[jackc]

Trouble is, the Govt NEVER gives anything without strings attached.  Personally, I believe people should fund their own safety equipment,  Be like expecting the Govt to supply free seatbelts for your old pre 1963 car, or something like that. 

[kgwilson]

The government should instruct CASA to work with Uavionix and fast track approval for the Australian FLARM frequency to be included in a Firmware upgrade. That is far simpler and would be considerably cheaper.

[jackc]

I am not so sure IF the Sky Echo can accommodate the FLARM freq that is used in Australia.  The best solution would have been that a global harmonised FLARM frequency be used, like ADS-B.

The ACMA allocated the freq band used in Europe to some other unrelated users in Australia, Telcos etc?  

I suspect that is why the cost of FLARM units is so high in Australia because of its small market here with dedicated frequency not used in other parts of the World?