Apparently midair at Gympie at 3pm today, 9/11/22

[derekliston]

33 minutes ago, jackc said:

Several things come to mind, some people think a radio is a big brown snake, they know where it is but don’t want to touch it UNLESS their aircraft is falling out of the sky.  Next, they are worried about fluffing a call and be made to feel like an idiot, so they stay silent.  They make a call and get confused with other traffic, some one reams them over the radio and that’s a big distraction while flying.   Trouble today is…..hot shot pilots don’t mind berating others if their radio work is not perfect.  It’s like many pilots don’t like their landing being ‘watched’  because all the armchair Top Guns will say , he’s coming in too slow, he flared wrong, he dropped a wing etc etc. All the ‘watchers’ make criticisms of what he should have done. 

BUT the plane never got wrecked 🙂 

I’ve been flying since 1968 but because of the usual marriage, mortgage, kids scenario, I am and will always be a low time pilot, so in no way a hotshot, however I do like to know there is traffic around and don’t really care if their radio language isn’t perfect!

[jackc]

I am led to believe from an authorative third party that the glider was making all the right calls, nothing was heard from the other aircraft, he maybe was on wrong frequency?  

[kgwilson]

As we all should know, there are NO MANDATORY RADIO CALLS in CTAF other than to avoid a collision. There are of course recommended calls. I always make a 10 mile call even if I am just out for a local flight or lesser NM if I don't get more that 10NM away. I then make an overhead/joining call & if I hear nothing after both calls and see nothing I don't make any further calls and land. If others are on the ground or inbound or in the circuit I make downwind, base and final calls as appropriate. On takeoff I always make entering and intentions calls and a rolling call. Everyone should download and read the booklet "Be seen, be heard, be safe. The link is below. If you write to CASA they will send hard copies free of charge as well.

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

 

When I am on the mower at our aerodrome I have a small airband radio receiver with earplugs under the earmuffs tuned to 126.7. Some people make heaps of calls some make only a few and some none at all. On Friday there were several visitors. One of the aircraft left and I heard nothing at all. The pilot may have not made any calls, been on the wrong frequency or his radio was not working. This is why ADSB would be beneficial in all aircraft, though not for me on the mower. Nothing is guaranteed though as radios and Nav aids have to be 1 working and 2 turned on.

[jackc]

Having thought a lot about this thread……maybe I need to make my ‘Super Bin Chicken J-230D way more visible than  its existing all white livery? 

Vinyl wrap of bright colours.  Make it at least very visible from above, to the sides, front and rear etc.  Leave the undersides white?

Even this looks good, it’s new callsign be ‘Chickendog 1’  🙂 

 

[onetrack]

Not much conspicuity with the Pilatus, Jack - that paint job isn't named camouflage for nothing!

 

You could have your aircraft wrapped in hi-viz fluoro green and orange - but if other fliers are not staying alert, keeping a proper lookout, and making calls on the correct frequency - then no amount of hi-viz cladding will save you from a collision.

 

[jackc]

Just now, onetrack said:

Not much conspicuity with the Pilatus, Jack - that paint job isn't named camouflage for nothing!

 

You could have your aircraft wrapped in hi-viz fluoro green and orange - but if other fliers are not staying alert, keeping a proper lookout, and making calls on the correct frequency - then no amount of hi-viz cladding will save you from a collision.

 

Parked on ground or being dive bombed from above is its forte, not easily seen.  However, white is a bad colour…….definitely need something better. OR fly  a Thruster and get a great view of everything:-) 

[kgwilson]

It doesn't matter what colour you paint your aircraft you won't be seen more than a couple of NM away and if an aircraft is flying towards you the closing speed will be 150 to 300 knots. 150 knots  at 2 NM is 24 seconds and only 12 seconds at 300 knots.

[BrendAn]

I was watching 2 aircraft flying circuits, 1 without a strobe and the other had one , huge difference, Glad my bin chicken has one.

Edited November 13, 2022 by BrendAn

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

Parked on ground or being dive bombed from above is its forte, not easily seen.  However, white is a bad colour…….definitely need something better. OR fly  a Thruster and get a great view of everything:-) 

The only real issue of visibility with the Jab that I've found in the circuit was seeing one instantly on late final  from its rear where it has the tiniest profile in wings and fuselage against a coudy sky (A couple of colour bands in somethig like red might make a lot of difference.)

 

So it's hard to find out when it turns base because you have a gig search area; you know its there because you've followed it for three circuits. If it calls Base, you only have to look at the Base turn zone and won't miss the visibility change when the top of its wings come into much more prominence.

 

I mentioned previously that the Government dropped their duty of care exposure by throwing the responsibility for radio transmissions on to the pilot. The logical implication is the first choice you need to make in order not to breach your duty of care is start with a base level equivalent to that just handed to you by the government. That doesn't mean inventing your own, although you could if your method produced a safer situation, it means not dropping any of the safety inherent in the previous government system. So you might start by adopting the previous government call procedures, the you might add ADSB etc.  This process is quite common in corporate structures. The government doesn't care how much extra safety you add because the other party will be suing you now, not the government.

 

 

[turboplanner]

6 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I was watching 2 aircraft flying circuits, 1 without a strobe and the other had one , huge difference, Glad my bin chicken has one.

Very important point. The strobes on a Warrior are uaually only turned on at pre-takeoff, and turned off after landing as a polite action. They easily pinpoint the aircraft all the way round the circuit.

 

The strobes fitted to the Jab are not visible against cloud on a bright day and generally maybe lass than half as effective as the Warrior. Whether that is because of battery/alternator capacity or price I don't know, but that would be better than paint.

[facthunter]

I would say the view from a Drifter is one of the best. The best would have to be a 'Breezy" with no structure to frame against the horizon..  Nev

[facthunter]

I think only a small % of pilots could adapt to flying a Breezy without an A/H.  Nev. 

[derekliston]

I am fortunate that I am retired and can fly any day weather permitting, therefore I pretty much don’t fly on weekends when the gliders are flying. That is no fault of the gliders, it is more that, because they are white, skinny and quick, I worry about seeing them and as good as they may or may not be on their radios they sometimes make non standard approaches, for obvious reasons, a bit low so they can’t go round so they will make a right hand circuit or even a contra landing. As I said and I stress, I don’t blame the gliders, I just keep out of their way! One question about the Kybong accident, one witness said they heard a bang and “saw aeroplane bits coming out of the cloud!” Now I do know how unreliable non aviation witnesses can be, but was there any cloud?

[Kyle Communications]

17 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Relies on aircraft sending and receiving mobil data to and from a ground station. ADSB works directly between aircraft with zero latency. It is the only real solution.  

Thruster if you have a SE2 then it comes up directly on the screen with the mobile data ones. Ozrunways only has mobile ADSB but it does show other Ozrunways users but again all via mobile data. Avplan does SE2 ADSB directly in its base VFR plan where OZrunways you have to buy the "Premiun" plan

[Garfly]

9 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Thruster if you have a SE2 then it comes up directly on the screen with the mobile data ones. Ozrunways only has mobile ADSB but it does show other Ozrunways users but again all via mobile data. Avplan does SE2 ADSB directly in its base VFR plan where OZrunways you have to buy the "Premiun" plan

Yeah, I believe you are both very familiar with all of that; just at cross purposes.

 

Something I've discovered recently is that if you run AvTraffic along with OzRwys (a published feature) you can have all available ADSB targets (plus FLARM et al) show up on the OzRwys display.

 

'Real' ADSB targets also display (fed by an SE2, or similar).  Of course, you tend to get shadow a/c icons due to variable latency, but you get that anyway if you run OzRwys traffic with your ADSB-IN traffic.  Plus, you can get an audible traffic alert (from AvTraffic) as long as you hook up your iPad audio to your intercom.   

 

I've never bothered with all that in the air but it's a good way to be able to see-it-all in one place (minus Mode C transponders, unfortunately) while you're sitting on the ground (wishing you were up there. ;- )

[Yenn]

Visibility is difficult. What we think of as good colours for visibility is not necessarily correct. When I built the Corby I painted it yellow with dayglo orange wing and rudder tips. It is not really easy to see even against a blue sky.

I painted the RV4, dark green underneath and white on top and it was easy to spot. My personal experience is that a white plane beneath you is just about the most visible and a dark plane above is the same, white underneath and dark on top is just about the hardest to see.

Non radio equipped planes can fly legally and you will not hear them, but you must look for them. Any radio equipped plane is expected to use the radio and not using it, then getting involved with another plane could lead to CASA taking action against you.

We still no nothing about the Gympie accident, but the powered plane should have kept clear of the glider.

[facthunter]

A good strobe is probably one of the best things to have. A polished bare metal plane acts a bit like a mirror in turns. That is one of the times you are most visible. Head on or direct behind is the worst. If a plane sits in the same place in the frame of the window you will collide.   Nev

[kgwilson]

Yes strobes are useful around the circuit but not a lot of use elsewhere. There was a long thread on strobe effectiveness years ago & the general consensus was that you only see them up close at night and on the ground.

[facthunter]

I think they are turned on below 10,000 ft but not when you are in cloud as they distract you.. If you are anywhere near a major airport and look around they are not just ornamental. You will be able to pick up quite a lot of planes. I did say GOOD strobe. Some are not much better than a Christmas tree light.  Nev

[old man emu]

Trouble with "plastic fantastics" is that they don't like UV rays, or is it Infra-red - the heat ones?  So they are painted white for greatest reflection to give the fibreglass a chance to provide a long service life. Even a rag bag's coating can't defeat Old Sol. Perhaps the answer is polished aluminium. Solves the problem of obscurity when you are flying a mirror.

[facthunter]

Lot of work looking after the surface. Alclad at .015" thick is likely to crack from the rivets unless it's glued / bonded as well...  Nev

[IBob]

FWIW I walked some distance round an airfield earlier this year to see what sort of strobe a stationary microlight was using. It was one of the Aveo RedBaron series, like a squat LED dalek: at a distance of 650m in clear daylight it was eyecatching.
It would be interesting to see it in the sky.

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:04 PM, BrendAn said:

I have thought about that but getting my fat arse out of a Jabiru in a hurry would be a mission. Then I thought the jab is never going to break unless something hits it. I don't think a ballistic chute would be much fun with the plane on fire either.

With the sky echo anyone see you on Oz runways is that right.  Like if I had one and put ozrunways on my wife's phone could she see where I am 

Cockpit fires are a *really* rare cause of accidents/fatalities. (bursting into flame on impact, really common). 

[jackc]

IF you want to retrofit a BRS to a RAAus aircraft, it’s a grief stricken path.  I bought a wearable chute with the ideas, IF the fan stops…..I simply fly it to the ground for a landing, IF over water I ditch it and take my chances.

Irrecoverable loss of control due to a control element failure OR major structural failure…..I will do what ever it takes,  to exit stage left out the door. If I stick with it…near 100% chance of death, either in the crash itself or death by fire.  A parachute? Not a guarantee of survival but a better chance than NOTHING.

[Blueadventures]

3 hours ago, IBob said:

FWIW I walked some distance round an airfield earlier this year to see what sort of strobe a stationary microlight was using. It was one of the Aveo RedBaron series, like a squat LED dalek: at a distance of 650m in clear daylight it was eyecatching.
It would be interesting to see it in the sky.

I have Aveo strobes and landing very good kit.