Apparently midair at Gympie at 3pm today, 9/11/22

[aro]

From the literature on diversity antennas:

 

top- and bottom-mount antennas .. reduce the potential for antenna “shading,” which helps prevent target drop out during turns and maneuvers. An optional top-mounted antenna also comes in handy during ground operations, when a bottom-mount mount antenna might not have clear line-of-sight to receive ADS-B ground station signals or transmissions from other participating aircraft.

 

The designers of the system say that a single antenna can have drop outs and shading, and may not receive signals from other aircraft. Significant enough to require 2 antennas on larger aircraft.

 

I'm not sure why you think this is so unlikely.

[Kyle Communications]

30 years in the radio business gives me some good reliable experience and data. I didnt say there would not be any reduction form time to time in signal recepton and transmission but in the scheme of things the path loss is not that dramatic and usually only for a very short time.

The transponder I bought is a TailbeaconX..that has 2 antennas built in. I would expect some shading but at 250 watts I will still get plenty of warning on TX and RX that I am totally comfortable with it.  ADSB in my opinion is far better than Mode C as I dont need to have a radar hit to ping me. The ADSB is far more open system and this is why it is being adopted worldwide

[aro]

25 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

in the scheme of things the path loss is not that dramatic and usually only for a very short time

That seems hard to assess without actually flying tests with 2 aircraft flying various manoeuvres and logging the data. Come to think of it, I probably could log data from a Raspberry Pi and look for gaps in the ADSB returns from all other aircraft and see how long they were...

 

I'm not against ADSB. As I said I use the display myself on Avplan.

 

But we are flying VFR, and when it comes time to mix with other traffic at short range e.g. the circuit, we need to look out the window and apply visual separation - NOT look at a screen. Yes, it can be hard to spot an aircraft e.g. on base against a complex background, but the screen is not a substitute.

[Garfly]

5 minutes ago, aro said:

But we are flying VFR, and when it comes time to mix with other traffic at short range e.g. the circuit, we need to look out the window and apply visual separation - NOT look at a screen. 

Ahhh ... okay, got it now.  Thanks for the patient explanation.

[facthunter]

The need for ADSB arrived from the reduction of RADAR.  A cost saving exercise and probably with a security  value too. Weather Radar rarely picks up a return on an aircraft, (Different frequency).  but you fluke it sometimes. The transponder code allocation makes individual A/C identifiable and tells altitude by pressure from each aircraft. That function is TSO'd and has to test within specified limits.  Nev

[Garfly]

The idea of using Cockpit Display of Traffic Information (CDTI) as an assist to self separation - even within controlled space - has been around for a while. The adoption of ADSB has just made the practice universally available - in any kind of airspace.

 

This is from 20 years ago.

 

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1052971

Abstract:

The cockpit display of traffic information (CDTI) enhanced flight rules (CEFR) application is an extension of the current visual separation procedure used by ATC. In this application, the flight crew is authorized to use the CDTI in lieu of out-the-window visual contact of an aircraft during visual and instrument approaches. This research is being conducted as part of the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA's) safe flight 21 program. The initial implementation will require the flight crew to establish visual contact with the traffic to follow prior to losing sight of the aircraft (due to a visibility restricting condition such as a cloud layer or haze). During the period of visual obscuration, the pilot will use CDTI to maintain awareness of the relative position and speed of other traffic. After passing through the visibility restricting condition, and prior to landing, the flight crew will use the CDTI to assist in re-establishing out-the-window visual contact. The CDTI will also be used to initially detect, monitor, and reacquire the traffic to follow more effectively.

 

Some early Ozzie thinking:

https://www.icao.int/Meetings/AMC/MA/2005/ADSB_ADSB_TF3/ip10.pdf

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Garfly

[Bruce Tuncks]

I actually don't care what system I will finally be forced to buy and install. But I am a cheapskate and HATE being forced to pay an exorbitant amount.

How much is an SE system , for example, and will I have to pay heaps to get it installed by a dope with a bit of paper?

[Bruce Tuncks]

I currently have a samsung tablet with ozrunways....   is SE=skyecho ? is it just another program to add?

 

[kgwilson]

No the SE2 (Skecho2) is ADSB in and out and is a portable battery powered device that you stick on a side window with a suction cup. It interfaces with Oz runways and any other app that uses the Garmin GDL 90 protocol over WiFi. It will broadcast your Rego number and height AMSL to any aircraft equipped with ADSL In within about 40 NM and it receives the height and Rego of any aircraft within about the same distance that has ADSL Out. Oz runways will then display the direction of travel of broadcasting aircraft and ground speed as well I think.

 

It is about the same size as a pack of cigarettes. Costs $1095.00 from Uavionix & you get half that back with the government subsidy. Picture below.

 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

No the SE2 (Skecho2) is ADSB in and out ... It will broadcast your Rego number and height AMSL to any aircraft equipped with ADSL In within about 40 NM and it receives the height and Rego of any aircraft within about the same distance that has ADSL Out. 

Not to forget, as well, that it shows the precise real time position of ADSB 'targets' right on your own moving map - the one you're using for nav, anyway.  No need for another program. It integrates with your existing EFB (and/or traffic app such as AvTraffic).

The SkyEcho target symbol does not show AMSL but hundreds of feet relative to your own ship, along with vertical trend (climbing/descending).

And, of course, it does the same vis-a-vis your own ship for all other ADSB/CDTI* equipped aircraft in your vicinity.

 

*Cockpit Display of Traffic Information. 

 

  

Edited February 12, 2023 by Garfly

[kgwilson]

20 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

The SkyEcho target symbol does not show AMSL but hundreds of feet relative to your own ship, along with vertical trend (climbing/descending).

 

 

 

 

  

The SE2 has a TSO certified barometric altimeter to determine altitude so not exactly AMSL but pretty close. It provides only GPS location and altitude plus the aircraft callsign. This data is transmitted continuously probably every second or 2. Speed direction and other factors are determined by the system used in your aircraft that receives those details via wifi from the SE2.

[Garfly]

18 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The SE2 has a TSO certified barometric altimeter to determine altitude so not exactly AMSL but pretty close. It provides only GPS location and altitude plus the aircraft callsign. This data is transmitted continuously probably every second or 2. Speed direction and other factors are determined by the system used in your aircraft that receives those details via wifi from the SE2.

True. But I believe all the EFB traffic apps display only relative altitude of targets (to own ship) in hundreds of feet.  I guess that's a universal standard for CDTI systems. The crucial arithmetic is done for you: how far above or below me; ascending or descending.   Other apps (other than cockpit displays) that make use of the ADSB-Exchange data, such as FR24 etc. will, of course, display the raw Pressure Altitude info. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Garfly

[kgwilson]

Enroute displays the actual altitude transmitted from the ADSB Out of the other aircraft. The algorithms of the software will not display any ADSB data if vertical separation is greater than 1,500 metres (4924 feet) or horizontal distance is greater than 20 NM. This avoids clutter on the screen and filters out all the RPT that you see on Flight Radar unless of course it falls within those parameters.

[Student Pilot]

19 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I currently have a samsung tablet with ozrunways....   is SE=skyecho ? is it just another program to add?

 

That's what I use and seems to work well, only problem (discussed before in this thread? I haven trawled through the previous pages) is when other aircraft don't have it. Around fires most use it and it's just one tool to have good situational awareness. 
 

I have seen mixed results with the Skyecho, some great others not. Setup variable with those or you just turn it on?

[RossK]

Had a great result with the SE on Friday!

Tracking over Yarrawonga I could see we we had a potential conflict with another AC, we were at 3500 tacking 005 and they were at 3500 tracking 175. I pushed the nose down and tried calling them but got no reply. 30 seconds later we watched them fly over the top by about 400ft.

On the tablet I could see their altitude, speed and callsign, everything I needed to avoid them.

[Garfly]

5 hours ago, Student Pilot said:

That's what I use and seems to work well, only problem (discussed before in this thread? I haven trawled through the previous pages) is when other aircraft don't have it. Around fires most use it and it's just one tool to have good situational awareness. 
 

I have seen mixed results with the Skyecho, some great others not. Setup variable with those or you just turn it on?

SP,  are the firebombers usually equipped with ADSB transponders and/or in-panel traffic displays, or do some pilots just choose to use their own iPads for some extra traffic awareness such as OzRwys with some kind of ADSB in and/or out device like a SkyEcho2 ? 

[Student Pilot]

Can't talk for other companies but ours has Skyecho and normal mode S transponder. Pilots use their own ipads which is the only visual representation of any traffic. Main tool is radio communication between pilots. There is no connection with a GPS for an indication from the ADSB.  I have flown for other companies where traffic was indicated on a large screen GPS, optimum equipment.

[Garfly]

I suppose the SkyEchos are mainly used for IN only (iPad/EFB display) since transmitting 2 ADSB signals at the same time is problematic.

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, Garfly said:

SP,  are the firebombers usually equipped with ADSB transponders and/or in-panel traffic displays, or do some pilots just choose to use their own iPads for some extra traffic awareness such as OzRwys with some kind of ADSB in and/or out device like a SkyEcho2 ? 

Our local Aggies sometimes appear on OzRunways, but sometimes don’t. When asked, one pilot said he turns his off when his phone battery is low.

 

During the last week several helicopters have been passing over my house en route to a fire on the Liverpool Range. None appears to be using ADS-B, but they usually show up on OzRunways.

[Student Pilot]

On 13/2/2023 at 5:31 PM, Garfly said:

I suppose the SkyEchos are mainly used for IN only (iPad/EFB display) since transmitting 2 ADSB signals at the same time is problematic.

The Skyechos we have aren't connected to any avionics, completely independent of anything.   

[kgwilson]

On 13/02/2023 at 5:31 PM, Garfly said:

I suppose the SkyEchos are mainly used for IN only (iPad/EFB display) since transmitting 2 ADSB signals at the same time is problematic.

If you already have ADSB Out enabled with a Mode S transponder you must disable ADSB Out as per the manual instruction below..

 

8.3.2 1090ES Transmit
This setting configures SkyEcho for transmission. Select the checkbox to enable transmission if allowed in your operating location.
Deselect the checkbox to disable transmission. Transmission must be deactivated when used on an aircraft with an Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System (ATCRBS) Mode-S transponder which has ADS-B OUT enabled.

[coljones]

On 14/02/2023 at 9:42 PM, Student Pilot said:

The Skyechos we have aren't connected to any avionics, completely independent of anything.   

Does your transponder have ADSB Out or are your planes dependant on using SkyEcho to provide the ADSB Out signal as well as providing an ADSB In receiver function for EFBs?

[Student Pilot]

11 hours ago, coljones said:

Does your transponder have ADSB Out or are your planes dependant on using SkyEcho to provide the ADSB Out signal as well as providing an ADSB In receiver function for EFBs?

No idea

[kgwilson]

The cost to get the ADSB Out module installed with your mode S transponder is typically $5-7000.00 so I don't see that many when out flying. Most GA who have ADSB out are Flight Training School aircraft.

[derekliston]

2 hours ago, kgwilson said:

The cost to get the ADSB Out module installed with your mode S transponder is typically $5-7000.00 so I don't see that many when out flying. Most GA who have ADSB out are Flight Training School aircraft.

I have ADSB out with the Skyview set-up in my Zenith CH701