US air show crash 13/11/2022

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, facthunter said:

Whoever devised the Operational logic didn't carry out a proper risk assessment. Same height and LOW and varying speeds and turn radius.  Only a matter of time.Nev

One of the photos shows three bombers in line astern as they used to fly out from England starting to go past the demo area. The fighters used to sit above them and out from them as the first defence.  The King Cobra is coming in at a significant angle and down from the fly past - almost like an attack. I guess someone eventually will tell us what was supposedto be happening.

[Garfly]

 

 

 

[danny_galaga]

Thanks for posting. We still won't know for a year or so of course but certainly leans towards him not being some sort of 'cowboy'. Makes me more inclined to think there was a problem with the aircraft else he himself had a medical emergency.

[Bosi72]

"There Isn’t a Man Alive Who Hasn’t Made a Mistake" - Bob Hoover

[rgmwa]

Maybe there was a problem with the plane or maybe he had a medical issue but I think more likely he just didn’t or couldn’t see the B17 until it was too late. The main question is what went wrong in the planning that put him there in the first place. 
 

[Old Koreelah]

Surely many traffic management lessons were learned during the war, when hundreds of aircraft were marshalled into close proximity and often collided or even dropped bombs on each other.

Today, with good communication gear, nobody shooting at them and perfect daylight weather, these people have ideal conditions to recreate WWII action. Perhaps one problem is the concentrated audience, which demands low and close passes by these precious warbirds?

 

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

Thanks for posting. We still won't know for a year or so of course but certainly leans towards him not being some sort of 'cowboy'. Makes me more inclined to think there was a problem with the aircraft else he himself had a medical emergency.

A heart attack is a good possibility, would account for the trajectory.

I had a driver die beside me on a race track. His head had dropped, so he had gone but luckily his foot didn't fall on the accelerator pedal, and he just arced into the infield.

[onetrack]

After reading about the stellar career and outstanding abilities of this pilot, the reasons behind the crash become even less understandable, and a severe medical event affecting the pilot of the P-63 Kingcobra is starting to raise its spectre.

I see things in this pilots physical features and lifestyle that I do not like, as regards the potential for sudden death. I'll not outline them here, but wait until the NTSB report is concluded, and the autopsy results are in. It's a fact of life that you can pass an intensive medical, and drop dead minutes later. The worlds greatest running athlete dropped dead whilst on a training run.

 

https://meaww.com/who-was-craig-hutain-details-of-montgomery-pilot-who-died-in-dallas-air-crash

[Thruster88]

Look at the flight tracks. A simple loss of situational awareness seems far more likely.

 

  

 

[facthunter]

AS far as I can determine he just flew as if  HE didn't SEE the other plane and they were both intending to occupy the same airspace but he came from a higher and tighter trajectory than the 4 enginned planes were doing and at a higher speed. Perfect set up for not seeing the plane ahead and colliding with it..  Nev

[onetrack]

If you watch the video from the rear of the last few seconds of flight before the collision, the P-63 Kingcobra shows an increase in banking to the left, to the point where the bank angle is quite steep before the impact.

Whether this was being carried out under the control of the pilot, or whether it was because he was no longer in control, is going to be a major point of the investigation.

[facthunter]

THAT could also be a result of seeing the other plane at the last moment..  Would he be under great streets doing something that was part of a repeated routine in Broad daylight.  The  routine is flawed and I'm amazed it was ever approved.  Nev

[facthunter]

Stress not streets. sorry spellcheck and going too fast. Nev

[red750]

The P63 King Cobra that collided with the B-17.

 

[Old Koreelah]

Five crew in the bomber; in wartime, most would be keeping a keen lookout- in all directions- for danger. Something they should also be doing at airshows.

[facthunter]

Being liable for a severe penalty if you  fly near the Crowd is in participant's minds also. Nev

[danny_galaga]

Good analysis from AOPA. Commentary by a seasoned airshow pilot (Thunderbirds). Not speculative, just very informative. I learnt a few things watching

 

 

 

[IBob]

So, we have Juan Browne focusing on vertical separation (or lack of it) while this latest analysis at no point mentions that, but focuses entirely on horizontal separation........

[facthunter]

It doesn't appear that vertical separation was part of it and tracking too close to the CROWD gets you in deep $#!t with the FAA.. Crowd avoidance is a common feature of airshows.  Several  assessments note the possibility of not being  able to see the B 17 until it was  too late.  The set up seems a bit "hairy" to me. The cross wind was from the right so should have aided NOT going into the Path of the "Heavies". . perhaps the pilot counted on the X wind being stronger than it was as at the contact he was banking steeply. Too late then... Nev

[danny_galaga]

1 hour ago, IBob said:

So, we have Juan Browne focusing on vertical separation (or lack of it) while this latest analysis at no point mentions that, but focuses entirely on horizontal separation........

The AOPA guy has extensive airshow experience. I just looked up Juan Browne. Very accomplished, but no airshow experience that I could tell.

 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/articles-by-author/richard-mcspadden

 

 

http://readyfortakeoffpodcast.com/rft-376-youtube-star-juan-browne/

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by danny_galaga

[Thruster88]

Dan Gryder talks about the plan and ops on the day. Starts at the 32min mark in the vid.

 

 

[danny_galaga]

24 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Dan Gryder talks about the plan and ops on the day. Starts at the 32min mark in the vid.

 

 

This guy?

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/delta-suspends-jailed-pilot/kNz1A9uDMWVK106R6xOPnL/

 

Don't think I'll listen to anything he has to say...

 

[onetrack]

Wrong bloke, Danny. Dan Gryder of the air crash video analyses is aged 59. The bloke arrested after threatening to run over police in his aircraft is Dan Wayne Gryder, aged 48.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, danny_galaga said:

This guy?

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/delta-suspends-jailed-pilot/kNz1A9uDMWVK106R6xOPnL/

 

Don't think I'll listen to anything he has to say...

 

 

Actually it is the same Dan Gryder and while there may be good reasons to take that position, that article might not be one of them.  The man himself explains why:

 

 

[onetrack]

Ahhh, O.K. I didn't pick up that Dannys link was to a 2009 story, I thought it was a more recent story.