US air show crash 13/11/2022

[IBob]

Danny, the AOPA guy gives us a talk on how and why the flying is organised in airshows. It's interesting and useful information as far as it goes but he offers us no insight as to what happened on the day.
Juan Browne covers much of the same ground, again it is useful and interesting but with no specific insight.

 

In trying to understand, I am inclined to listen to anyone who can offer genuine insight, regardless of their position and past history. I don't see 'experience in airshows' or 'never got caught up in small town politics' as being necessary qulifications.

[IBob]

Specifically, we are interest in what the pilot of the P63 was doing.
Dan Gryder states that the air boss was directing events by radio, and had asked the P63 to move up, to get ahead of the B17.

IF that is correct, then it would explain what appears to be the acceleration, increased turn radius and bank of the P63.

[danny_galaga]

9 hours ago, Garfly said:

 

Actually it is the same Dan Gryder and while there may be good reasons to take that position, that article might not be one of them.  The man himself explains why:

 

 

Nope. Still a douche. If a cop gives you a directive, you do it. Is a cop familiar with a vintage planes operations? Tells you to stop what you're doing, and then you turn on a boost pump. That's a deliberate provocation. If he was on the highway in a car, he coulda got shot. It would be like being asked to put your hands up, and instead you reach into your jacket. "Oh was just reaching for my licence officer"

 

What an ass...

Edited November 23, 2022 by danny_galaga

[danny_galaga]

29 minutes ago, IBob said:

Danny, the AOPA guy gives us a talk on how and why the flying is organised in airshows. It's interesting and useful information as far as it goes but he offers us no insight as to what happened on the day.
Juan Browne covers much of the same ground, again it is useful and interesting but with no specific insight.

 

In trying to understand, I am inclined to listen to anyone who can offer genuine insight, regardless of their position and past history. I don't see 'experience in airshows' or 'never got caught up in small town politics' as being necessary qulifications.

It is genuine insight for people like me, who didn't know about the lanes etc that airshow pilots use. That's an insight into what is supposed to be happening, and therefore a clue about why it didn't happen.

 

No one is going to have the answer for a year or so. At least the AOPA guy isn't claiming to have the answer, like some of these other YouTube guys do...

[onetrack]

Danny, she wasn't a cop, she was only playing at being one. She was a county official, essentially a ranger, as Dan says, "equivalent to a dog catcher".

 

If she was parked in front of an aircraft at an aerodrome, and the pilot warned her he was going to start up his aircraft and move it, what authority did she have to stop him from moving it? None, AFAICS.

 

I'm with Dan on this one - and the fact that every single trumped-up charge got thrown out of court by a Grand Jury, and the airline kept him on, is testament to his story.

 

These county officials are like council officials here, small minds and big egos. The fact remains that many police officers in America are employed and paid by the county, and this is just plain wrong.

 

It means that petty U.S. county officials can use the local police to suit their own personal agendas. It's obvious Dan and the county are at loggerheads. I mean to say, who erects huge tall metal poles 100 feet from the end of a runway without authorisation? Just goes to show the county officials pettiness and their pathetic attempts to stop aviation from that aerodrome so they can redevelop it.

[Old Koreelah]

Amazing that things could get so out of hand, but we have to realise the complexity of American jurisdictions and the prejudiced approach so often taken by their officials. 

Another depressing aspect is the apalling level of ignorance among many Americans given a gun and a badge.
I believe 54% of Canadians have a Uni degree but a similar proportion of Americans can barely read at a primary school level.

[johnm]

Danny, she wasn't a cop, she was only playing at being one. She was a county official, essentially a ranger, as Dan says, "equivalent to a dog catcher".

 

'similar to an animal control officer' ...................... please  😇

[Bosi72]

23 hours ago, johnm said:

Danny, she wasn't a cop, she was only playing at being one. She was a county official, essentially a ranger, as Dan says, "equivalent to a dog catcher".

 

'similar to an animal control officer' ...................... please  😇

or Animal Management Officer 🙂

 

https://www.seek.com.au/job/59319457?

 

interestingly, earns more than average G3  flying instructor

 

https://www.glassdoor.com.au/Salaries/flight-instructor-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm#:~:text=The national average salary for a Flight Instructor is %2452%2C000 in Australia.

 

 

[Captain]

On 24/11/2022 at 9:47 AM, Old Koreelah said:

Another depressing aspect is the apalling level of ignorance among many Americans given a gun and a badge.
I believe 54% of Canadians have a Uni degree but a similar proportion of Americans can barely read at a primary school level.

I have spent a lot of time in the USA on business and leisure over many decades and that generalization by you is rubbish, Old K.

[Old Koreelah]

15 hours ago, Captain said:

I have spent a lot of time in the USA on business and leisure over many decades and that generalization by you is rubbish, Old K.

Captain it’s good to see you back on the forum. I’ll defer to your greater experience of Americans.

Maybe you could comment on what you think is behind the amazing behaviour described by Dan Gryder.

[danny_galaga]

Just this about Dan Gryders incident to explain why I can't listen to someone like that (maybe try leading by example for instance) and then I'll shut up 😄

 

"Griffin code enforcement officers were called to the airport on Wednesday for a report of a pilot disrupting the airport. Gryder was driving his car across the runway and taxiway, Griffin Police Investigator Bryan Clanton said."

 

"Gryder has a history of disturbances at the Griffin airport, including previous complaints of him illegally driving his car on the runways, according to Robert Mohl, the airport's director."

 

"Mohl said he doesn't understand why Gryder didn't just sign the tickets on Wednesday, which would have ordered him to appear in court. He likely would have just gotten a fine instead of jail time, Mohl said.

 

"But he decided to pursue a different course of action, which disrupted our planes from coming and going," he said.

 

The Griffin airport does not have air traffic control, so pilots must announce their own comings and goings, Mohl said.

 

"It’s quite safe as long as everybody follows the rules. One of the rules is ground vehicles stay off the runways and taxiways,"

[IBob]

Nobody's obliging you to listen to him, Danny.

However, it seems to me you are at risk of shooting the messenger here.

You may not like the man (and it is evident from the effort you are putting in to dig the dirt that you do not), but whether he is likeable or not is an entirely different question than whether he has something valid to say. This thread is about the recent accident at Dallas, it's not about what Dan Gryder did somewhere else ten tears ago, and there is no connection between the two.

[danny_galaga]

Agreed. I'll say no more about it

[Captain]

8 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Captain it’s good to see you back on the forum. I’ll defer to your greater experience of Americans.

Maybe you could comment on what you think is behind the amazing behaviour described by Dan Gryder.

Thanks Old K.

 

Dan G has really hooked into the AirBoss and if it is true that the AB gave the P63 the instruction to move up, then that is bad, but I would have always expected that any decision for the P63 to do anything, finally comes down to that pilot ....... particularly when he knew that he would be blind and close to the other aircraft.

 

As we all know, in this caper it only takes one small misjudgement for everything to turn to custard ....... although in the 5 or 6 sets of footage that I have seen there appears to be aircraft all over the place with various speeds and turn radii, so a major worry anyway IMHO.

 

The (perhaps limited) footage of the briefing, as commented on by Juan Brown and Dan G, also seems a bit lacking in thoroughness.

 

I have attended a number of airshows in Dayton OH where the show was certainly thrilling, but often a tad hairy, with lots of old bold pilots having their brand of fun.

 

What say you on my thoughts?

 

Best Geoff

Edited November 27, 2022 by Captain

[Old Koreelah]

I was actually more interested in what happened in ‘09. 

 

Regarding this recent tragedy, you seem to be on the money. I’ve seen more thorough safety briefings before an amateur road race. I suspect this event will lead to a tightening of the rules. It could have been far worse: although they seem to be strict about not overflying the crowd, much of their flight path is over suburbia.

[facthunter]

Avoiding overflying the crowd is pretty universal at airshows, If a pilot strays he's sure to be fronted by the authorities. That may have been a factor here.  Nev

[onetrack]

I still have trouble figuring out how a very experienced pilot with 34,000 hrs in his logbook made such a basic flying error. I'm of the opinion the autopsy will hold the answer.

[spenaroo]

14 hours ago, onetrack said:

I still have trouble figuring out how a very experienced pilot with 34,000 hrs in his logbook made such a basic flying error. I'm of the opinion the autopsy will hold the answer.

common saying we used to say with motorcycles is: there are those who have crashed, and those who haven't crashed yet. its just a matter of time

Mistake are inevitable, all we can do is reduce the risk with the variables we control.
some would say with that many hours he was overdue an incident - he just never got the chance to fix this one

we all have heard the old saying, 
Pilots learn from others mistakes, as they might not get to learn from their own.

Edited November 27, 2022 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

Flying is very unforgiving of errors and misjudgements. The LOGIC of the method of separation here was flawed and a set up for disaster at any time.   Nev

[Thruster88]

23 hours ago, onetrack said:

I still have trouble figuring out how a very experienced pilot with 34,000 hrs in his logbook made such a basic flying error. I'm of the opinion the autopsy will hold the answer.

Incapacitation is extremely rare in pilots with a class 1 medical. Loss of situational awareness is relatively common, even with experienced crew. One of Dan Gryder's recent videos is about the crash in the USA that resulted in the 1500 hour rule for ATPL's in the USA. Both pilots flying a dash 8 aircraft failed to notice the airspeed bleeding off, the aircraft stalled and crashed.

 

I will admit to having had loss of situational awareness, 99.99% of the time we get way with it.

[Rotorwork]

Latest reports state P-63 may have hit a drone

 

https://eurasiantimes.com/mid-air-horror-did-us-b-17-bomber-p-63-kingcobra-collide/

[facthunter]

Might be something in that too. But if so, what  was it doing there?  Nev

[Garfly]

Hmmm, interesting theory but the only source that EurAsian Times seems to offer for the 'new information [that] has emerged' is this:   @Boeing @Joe Biden @PENTAGON 펜타곤 (Official YouTube Channel)

 

Worth clicking through to view the YouTube Comments for some debate on the theory:

 

DEADLY CRASH Of B-17 Bomber

EurAsian Times

312 subscribers

 

87,704 views Nov 27, 2022

New information has emerged about the horrific mid-air collision between a Boeing B-17 bomber and a Bell P-63 Kingcobra, during an air display on November 12 at Texas’ Dallas Executive Airport. @Boeing @Joe Biden @PENTAGON 펜타곤 (Official YouTube Channel)

 

 

86 Comments

 

Kellen Razzano

1 day ago

If that artifact is actually an object, it appears out of nowhere in close proximity to the aircraft, leading to believe it's more likely a part ejected from the aircraft or engine block. Mechanical failure?

 

xjet

20 hours ago

I'm not saying it was aliens.... but... Seriously, one can not distinguish between a bird, a drone or anything that is represented by only a couple of pixels in a few frames of a noisy video. Some would love to speculate that it was a drone (sigh) but the odds are far more likely that it was either something totally unrelated to the incident or perhaps a bird. Remember, bird strikes cause over US$400m a year in damage to aircraft and losses to their operators but in the past 15 years there have been just a tiny handful of evidenced drone/plane collisions, none of which resulted in death or significant injury. Odds are... based on an analysis of 15 years worth of data... it was a bird. But don't let science get in the way of those who want to villify drones because they are ignorant.

 

   ETC.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Garfly

[facthunter]

A few crazy comments there. Like always.  Nev

[Garfly]

Well, like always, the pro-theory mob reckon the skeptics are crazy and vice-versa. ;- )