PA-28 crash near Bankstown 19/11/2022

[red750]

The pilot was uninjured when a Piper PA-28 suffered an engine failure after completing 8 touch and goes at Bankstown, and crashed into the Condell Park Paceway, colliding with a parked car. The pilot reported to ATC that his engine had stopped as he was on final.

 

 

In another report immediately after the above, three people were injured when a helicopter collided with power lines at Foresters Beach on the NSW Central Coast. Vision showed a Robinson R-44 but it was in flight, so it is uncertain whether this was the helicopter involved.

 

 

 

[red750]

Sorry Marty, you posted as I was typing.

[plugga]

There is video doing the rounds showing a green R44 going in, reportedly on the Central Coast today.  Looked as if things had gone wrong before the powerlines intruded.

 

The PA-28 was initially reported as first solo.😮 Seems unlikely given the number of circuits.

[Roundsounds]

1 minute ago, plugga said:

There is video doing the rounds showing a green R44 going in, reportedly on the Central Coast today.  Looked as if things had gone wrong before the powerlines intruded.

 

The PA-28 was initially reported as first solo.😮 Seems unlikely given the number of circuits.

The PA28 was a first solo. FR24 shows a full stop and taxy for further Circuit. Also ATC recording has ATC telling POLAIR24 it was a first solo with 1 POB. 
 

The R44 came to grief at Forresters Beach. 

[red750]

No wonder the poor bugger was shaking like a leaf. What an intro.

[turboplanner]

16 minutes ago, red750 said:

The pilot was uninjured when a Piper PA-28 suffered an engine failure after completing 8 touch and goes at Bankstown, and crashed into the Condell Park Paceway, colliding with a parked car. The pilot reported to ATC that his engine had stopped as he was on final.

 

 

In another report immediately after the above, three people were injured when a helicopter collided with power lines at Foresters Beach on the NSW Central Coast. Vision showed a Robinson R-44 but it was in flight, so it is uncertain whether this was the helicopter involved.

 

 

 

I think I saw wheel tracks on the trotting track. He might have made a landing then hit a few things.

[Yenn]

If he was on final when the engine stopped why didn't he make the field. Another case of relying on power to complete the landing.

[turboplanner]

45 minutes ago, Yenn said:

If he was on final when the engine stopped why didn't he make the field. Another case of relying on power to complete the landing.

The tracking shows 12 very neat circuits then straight on from downwind headed for the long straight of an oval dirt track, presume trotting track with what looked like enough room to stop and what may have happened was some Warrior float then maybe landed but ran off the end of the straight on the curve, through the fence/any poles etc and came to rest on the car.

[Roundsounds]

50 minutes ago, Yenn said:

If he was on final when the engine stopped why didn't he make the field. Another case of relying on power to complete the landing.

The concept of glide approaches in GA went out with Tiger Moths. I know it’s a thing with RAAus, but that goes back to 2 stroke engines and GFA instructors.

[old man emu]

55 minutes ago, Yenn said:

If he was on final when the engine stopped why didn't he make the field. Another case of relying on power to complete the landing.

Analysing some photos the aircraft  may have had the engine failure at the end of downwind because the direction of landing was the direction of the Base leg as indicated by the black arrow and the red premises marker.

 

[turboplanner]

42 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Analysing some photos the aircraft  may have had the engine failure at the end of downwind because the direction of landing was the direction of the Base leg as indicated by the black arrow and the red premises marker.

 

If you noved the arrow to the right, above the track that's about what the track shows. Looked light just a little too much float to get it stopped on the track.

[Mike Gearon]

11 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

The concept of glide approaches in GA went out with Tiger Moths. I know it’s a thing with RAAus, but that goes back to 2 stroke engines and GFA instructors.

Is this true?

[turboplanner]

24 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

Is this true?

Have all your landings been hands off the throttle, or do you adjust for under/over glidepath?

 

[Carbon Canary]

You may have all the training in the world but the startle effect may still turn your brain to mush when it counts.  

This young guy had little training under his belt and also got the startle.  He walked away from it, which was a good result. 

 

In GA, I still try to fly with an instructor every 6 months or so, and engine failure practice away from the circuit and glide approaches are a common feature.

[onetrack]

Quote

The concept of glide approaches in GA went out with Tiger Moths. I know it’s a thing with RAAus, but that goes back to 2 stroke engines and GFA instructors.

If the fan stops, are you not then simply gliding, and then have to carry a landing very promptly in the best manner you can judge? As I understand it, the PA-28 pilot reported an engine failure.

[MattP]

If the speculation that this was a first solo is true then he did a spectacular job, regardless he walked away and nobody got hurt. That's a win and you'd have to be happy with that. Hopefully he keeps at it too.

 

Regarding glide approaches, consider that at class d airports like this you're at the mercy of the traffic. I've put a track of my circuits last week at Moorabin. I tend to like to fly a tight circuit that allows me to glide back to the airport if not the runway I was using, rather than landing on houses/ bunnings.

 

You can see here the one circuit I did without traffic, then others either following others who circuit like they're in an a380 and also where I had to extend for traffic joining base. Glide approaches are nice but not always practical in these airports.

 

Also there tends to be a trend toward teaching circuits using landmarks rather than reference to the runway I've seen, not sure what the go is there but I learned to use the runway as your reference for  circuits. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by MattP
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[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

If the speculation that this was a first solo is true then he did a spectacular job, regardless he walked away and nobody got hurt. That's a win and you'd have to be happy with that. Hopefully he keeps at it too.

 

Regarding glide approaches, consider that at class d airports like this you're at the mercy of the traffic. I've put a track of my circuits last week at Moorabin. I tend to like to fly a tight circuit that allows me to glide back to the airport if not the runway I was using, rather than landing on houses/ bunnings.

 

You can see here the one circuit I did without traffic, then others either following others who circuit like they're in an a380 and also where I had to extend for traffic joining base. Glide approaches are nice but not always practical in these airports.

 

Also there tends to be a trend toward teaching circuits using landmarks rather than reference to the runway I've seen, not sure what the go is there but I learned to use the runway as your reference for  circuits. 

VERY neat circuits (but you wanted me to say that didn't you.) The circuits of the guy in Sydney were nearly as good, so I'd say he was a long way past first solo.

[Roundsounds]

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

If the fan stops, are you not then simply gliding, and then have to carry a landing very promptly in the best manner you can judge? As I understand it, the PA-28 pilot reported an engine failure.

Yes he did, so there’s no chance of making the runway without power on a powered approach. Unless you set up for a glide approach you won’t make the runway with an engine failure once you’ve reached the base turn position. 
as indicated elsewhere, you’re subject to other traffic and cannot guarantee spacing to make a glide approach. 
The ATC recordings state this was a first solo in Comms to POLAIR 24 when they were tasked to check in the pilot’s welfare. 

[MattP]

24 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

VERY neat circuits (but you wanted me to say that didn't you.) The circuits of the guy in Sydney were nearly as good, so I'd say he was a long way past first solo.

Don't know what you're taking about, they always look like that...😇

[facthunter]

IF he ever flies commercial Jets he'll never do a power off approach unless s he's run out of fuel, and it takes a fair bit of judging. I wouldn't advise  one either in gusting conditions or a short strip. Maybe he ran low on fuel. GA motors don't fail that often and you rely on them when there's no chance of being able to reach an aerodrome. Also a motor on about 25% power is unlkely to fail. Certainly less so than when on high power settings. Some engines soot plugs on power off situations and may falter if you need to go around. Nev

[MattP]

Carb ice? The warrior iii from memory is still carbureted (I know the archer iii is). I think they switched to injected engines with the tx lx models.

 

[facthunter]

The above sat for a while. Hope it's still relevant. Flying over  very built up areas in a single engined Piston doesn't grab me much at any time but the glide bit is more related to two stroke times which do fail  a lot more often that certified GA well maintained stuff does.  Re first solo Had he not performed a number of circuits? That's not the normal for first solo's. I always did tight circuits because I consider otherwise to be a waste of fuel but at many of these GA high traffic density places that's not going to happen very often and you'd be better off attending to other matters  than fretting about gliding to the field... Nev

[facthunter]

Dunno WHAT happened with that one?? Nev

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Also there tends to be a trend toward teaching circuits using landmarks rather than reference to the runway I've seen,

Which is an horrendous thing if you want to go places in an aeroplane. I bet no one taught to do circuits by reference to landmarks can tell me what are the circuit turning points at Tooraweenah.

[facthunter]

Of course you can't but If you Pre plan Using Google you'll know in  advance what points of reference exist that can be used. Once in a circuit you should reference the runway you're using. and you can use a stopwatch, once you get used to it.   Nev