PA-28 crash near Bankstown 19/11/2022

[MattP]

Yeah it’s not a good practice, but not sure if it’s being taught or just being appropriated by students until it’s metaphorically beaten out of them by their instructors.

 

I can see it making sense pre solo or just after, eg if you haven’t turned downwind by x then you are wide. Using the runway makes much more sense in my mind as it helps with whatever you do and once the student gets to forced landings you can build on the same concepts.

[Carbon Canary]

Be aware that at Bankstown there are three closely-aligned parallel runways with contra-circuits occurring on the outer two.  I would think that early in the training up to 1st solo at your home field, using landmarks as reference is quite OK to get into the groove.  Students aren't let loose away from their home field until after gaining their RPL. (I think)

[Bruce Tuncks]

A mate of mine had an engine failure on his first solo from Port Pirie. He landed back on the airfield and arrived back on foot to the hangar just as the cfi was getting up a worry.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I always thought it was a wonderful bit of flying.

[Roundsounds]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

VERY neat circuits (but you wanted me to say that didn't you.) The circuits of the guy in Sydney were nearly as good, so I'd say he was a long way past first solo.

If you listen to the BK TWR ATC recordings online, you’ll hear ATC tell POLAIR 24 it was the pilot’s first solo. 

[Jabiru7252]

I was taught that if the engine died during circuits you DO NOT have to land on a runway. Aim to get back on the ground in one piece and if that means landing across runways and taxi ways then so be it. Better than landing in some poor plebs backyard or worse, in their bedroom.

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, Jabiru7252 said:

I was taught that if the engine died during circuits you DO NOT have to land on a runway. Aim to get back on the ground in one piece and if that means landing across runways and taxi ways then so be it. Better than landing in some poor plebs backyard or worse, in their bedroom.

Yes. This was a sucessful forced landing where the pilot almost pulled off a landing on a trotting track.

At Moorabbin many successful forced landings have been made on he local golf courses without any damage.

Several forced landings have been made in the training area, and one was made on Ferntree Gully Road, but too many power lines, hit one just before touch down, evacuated 4 then the aircraft caught fire.

A few have died trying to make the airfield.

[pmccarthy]

Surely a key skill is judging distances and having the threshold at 45 degrees. I was never taught to use points on the ground and have never done so.

[MattP]

It looks like he did all that well, realised he was too far to glide back to the airport, committed to a flat open space in the trotting track and got it down. 

 

The fact the plane isn't re usable is a small detail that's for the school and insurance company to work out.  He goes home to his family and nobody on the ground got hurt. The car and plane are replaceable / repairable.

 

Hopefully he'll not have a heart attack when he reads the hire agreement and sees the excess.

[MattP]

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Yes. This was a sucessful forced landing where the pilot almost pulled off a landing on a trotting track.

At Moorabbin many successful forced landings have been made on he local golf courses without any damage.

Several forced landings have been made in the training area, and one was made on Ferntree Gully Road, but too many power lines, hit one just before touch down, evacuated 4 then the aircraft caught fire.

A few have died trying to make the airfield.

The issue is upwind particularly off 17 outside the airport and under 5-600ft where there aren't many options that aren't houses or factories. 

 

Past that point there are options in the greenery around thr area or the airport if you're not in Springvale or West Gippsland somewhere in your circuit!

[spenaroo]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

It looks like he did all that well, realised he was too far to glide back to the airport, committed to a flat open space in the trotting track and got it down. 

 

The fact the plane isn't re usable is a small detail that's for the school and insurance company to work out.  He goes home to his family and nobody on the ground got hurt. The car and plane are replaceable / repairable.

 

Hopefully he'll not have a heart attack when he reads the hire agreement and sees the excess.

well if its a first solo - isn't the instructor still technically the pilot in command?
remember hearing something like this when filling out my logbook after first solo

[facthunter]

HE usually pays a lot of attention from the ground but since you are the only person in the Plane It's in command but under supervision.  As I'e mentioned already it's unusual to do multiple circuits on a FIRST solo.  (unless you do a Go around as I did).  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

8 hours ago, turboplanner said:

At Moorabbin many successful forced landings have been made on he local golf courses without any damage...

Lucky to not collect a golfer. An aircraft gliding in may not be noticed by unsuspecting people on the ground.  Some have been killed by beach landings.

I believe every aircraft should carry some sort of horn/siren to clear people or wildlife out of their way. 

[facthunter]

IF you hear a horn you aren't usually likely to look for an Aeroplane.  When they are crashing don't they always make the Noise they do in the Movies? Nev

[Old Koreelah]

You mean the Stuka siren? Maybe we need to fit those.

[facthunter]

The stall warning might do it  AND you will land in a shorter distance. NOT ADVISED. Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

I knew a really good pilot who landed his glider on a golf-course. No damage, but he was quite angry that the golfers continued to go past him....  what if they hit the canopy with a golf-ball?

[facthunter]

Easy fixed. Tell them to aim for it. Nev

[onetrack]

The awkward part about golf courses is they are full of TRAPS! - for the golfer and the aviator!  Water traps and sand traps - and the fairways are not always smooth, either! Add in the trees, and you've still got a lot of hazards.

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by onetrack

[red750]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

HE usually pays a lot of attention from the ground but since you are the only person in the Plane It's in command but under supervision.  As I'e mentioned already it's unusual to do multiple circuits on a FIRST solo.  (unless you do a Go around as I did).  Nev

The multiple circuits were before the instructor got out and sent him off.

[Roundsounds]

6 hours ago, MattP said:

It looks like he did all that well, realised he was too far to glide back to the airport, committed to a flat open space in the trotting track and got it down. 

 

The fact the plane isn't re usable is a small detail that's for the school and insurance company to work out.  He goes home to his family and nobody on the ground got hurt. The car and plane are replaceable / repairable.

 

Hopefully he'll not have a heart attack when he reads the hire agreement and sees the excess.

This will be an interesting case to watch. Given it was his first solo, if found to be pilot error was he actually proficient to fly solo? Who’s liable, school, instructor, CFI, student?

This was always something I always considered when assessing whether a pilot was ready for solo or passing their flight test for the issue of a licence. Could I stand up in court and state this person was assessed as proficient?

Edited November 22, 2022 by Roundsounds

[Roundsounds]

2 hours ago, spenaroo said:

well if its a first solo - isn't the instructor still technically the pilot in command?
remember hearing something like this when filling out my logbook after first solo

You cannot be PIC and not be in the aircraft. All solo flights are logged by the pilot as PIC. 
Student pilots cannot fly unless under the supervision of a flight instructor. ie they can’t simply jump in an aeroplane and go flying, they must be authorised by an appropriately qualified instructor. The supervision includes a briefing / debriefing on the sequences to be flown, weather and any pertinent operational considerations. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Roundsounds

[turboplanner]

4 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

You cannot be PIC and not be in the aircraft. All solo flights are logged by the pilot as PIC. 
Student pilots cannot fly unless under the supervision of a flight instructor. ie they can’t simply jump in an aeroplane and go flying, they must be authorised by an appropriately qualified instructor. The supervision includes a briefing / debriefing on the sequences to be flown, weather and any pertinent operational considerations. 

What about fuel exhaustion?

[facthunter]

THAT is nearly always a consideration including incorrect selection . A few people have been known to run out of fuel while doing circuits, but if he had done only one solo, then How?  Nev

[Carbon Canary]

The initial report stated (and flightradar track tends to confirm) he had done eight touch 'n' go's ......prior to first solo.