Flying into Charlie airspace

[Parkway]

I did my initial ra-aus training at a class D airport in Perth, Jandakot. We were able to do a scenic route into the Perth Charlie airspace known as the victor65, which is basically a lap of the city for scenic purposes. I remember i needed to be checked out to be allowed to do this.. although i dont know if it was an Ra-aus rating? Or possibly it crossed over with CASA as i also have a CASA RPL. But the aircraft was an ra-aus rego. I have a feeling that this was only allowed because my base airport was in the Delta. So now that i fly out of a different airfield, i guess my question is.. I assume im not allowed to fly this route anymore?

[clouddancer]

Check out the RAAP on controlled airspace on the RAAus website.

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/raap-14-can-i-fly-in-controlled-airspace.pdf

[Parkway]

24 minutes ago, clouddancer said:

Check out the RAAP on controlled airspace on the RAAus website.

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/raap-14-can-i-fly-in-controlled-airspace.pdf

ah so the CASA license was the key ingredient 😉 

[Carbon Canary]

Plus your Class 2 medical.

[Carbon Canary]

In there latest update, CASA has delayed the proposal to allow RPC holders into Class D and C airspace until at least 1 qtr next year.

[facthunter]

CASA consider a delaying to be a decision inferring "we're working on it".  How long ago was the wt  increase to 762 Kg proposed by THEM?   Nev

[Carbon Canary]

 

"Some initiatives have not tracked as initially anticipated as work has identified new dependencies and issues that require proposals to be re-sequenced and rescoped"

 

I'm hoping Class C&D access may happen by 2025 

[facthunter]

That means so far our inadequate  efforts have not produced any progress, unsurprisingly.  Nev

[kgwilson]

I cannot work out what the issues are. I was flying in controlled airspace as a PPL with RA pilots & aircraft in NZ in the early 2000s. The only requirements were that the RA aircraft had to be fitted with a transponder and the RA pilot had to have a CTR endorsement. The RA guys used to fly in to Hamilton Airport which has international traffic and a lot or RPT as well as lots of flight training happening (CTC an English FTF had 40 Diamonds + the club students) quite a bit to get Avgas from the club bowser. I didn't know they were RA most of the time as all aircraft over there are on the same ZK register. The procrastination & lack of good valid reason for CASA's delay beggars belief.

[kiwiaviator]

2 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

I cannot work out what the issues are. I was flying in controlled airspace as a PPL with RA pilots & aircraft in NZ in the early 2000s. The only requirements were that the RA aircraft had to be fitted with a transponder and the RA pilot had to have a CTR endorsement. The RA guys used to fly in to Hamilton Airport which has international traffic and a lot or RPT as well as lots of flight training happening (CTC an English FTF had 40 Diamonds + the club students) quite a bit to get Avgas from the club bowser. I didn't know they were RA most of the time as all aircraft over there are on the same ZK register. The procrastination & lack of good valid reason for CASA's delay beggars belief.

Much the same over here in NZ except as of 31 Dec all aircraft flying in controlled airspace need ADSB. Also no need for a CTR endorsement.

Regardless of licence type, the requirement for use of radio and hence entry to Class C airspace  is that the pilot must be the holder of a current Flight Radio Telephone Operator rating (FRTO). This rating can be gained by the pilot passing an exam based on the CAA approved syllabus, and a practical training exercise and assessment conducted by an Instructor. Approved bodies for holding these exams are ASL, SAC and RAANZ. Written test papers and syllabus for these organizations are assessed by CAA against AC61-3

I could never understand why I could not fly into C or D airspace in Australia on my RAAus licence.

[Carbon Canary]

The ADS-B requirement in NZ is interesting and I must admit I am semi expecting to be a requirement here in Oz when the approval eventually comes through.  The odd thing here though is that ADS-B is currently ignored by ATC - they only rely on transponder returns in CTA.  

 

To me there are three very basic fundamentals to it.  The aircraft should be fitted with an appropriate conspicuity device (namely a transponder), the pilot should know how to use the conspicuity device and additionally the pilot must know and understand the correct radio communication and phraseology.  Thats it.

 

Talking with an AT controller at Bankstown a while back, I asked how he coped with the vast number of students.  He stated the biggest challenge was ensuring they actually did what they were told.  That is, they would be given an instruction that they would read back verbatim, but then they would do something completely different !

[facthunter]

Is he talking about overseas students? . Nev

[Carbon Canary]

At that time there were a lot of overseas students, but I didn't ask, and it doesn't matter.  All students were being trained through a local school.

[facthunter]

It's done in English. If that's not good it  does matter. Nev

[kgwilson]

ATC can see all ADSB devices transmitting within range of their receiver even low powered electronic conspicuity devices like the SE2, they just cannot interrogate them as they can with a transponder. The aircraft type and Rego are displayed. For RA aircraft it is R1234. The R meaning recreational and the numerics the last 4 digits of the aircrafts registration number. So they don't need to interrogate ADSB equipped aircraft

 

The reason they interrogate transponders is to establish the registration number which they do by radio providing a squawk code if one has not already been allocated, key that in to the computer against the allocated code then they can follow the aircraft on the radar screen. With ADSB this information is already there so they don't need to interrogate the device, just communicate by radio. ADSB makes transponders largely redundant though the radar & transponder have a much larger range.

 

The thing is there are thousands of ground ADSB receivers owned by enthusiasts that provide data to Flight Radar 24 and Flight Aware. Most use a cheap Raspberry Pi processor. Air Services also has official ground stations . I can check my flights in FR24 any time I like as I am usually within range of a ground station somewhere that is updating FR24 all the time.. 

[Carbon Canary]

Nev,

......and the read back is in English and follows strict requirement protocols.  It is the comprehension of the ATC instruction that is important, and that could be down to the individual student either local or overseas and the flying school instructor's confidence to let them loose in the circuit.   If the student happens to be conversing in their 2nd or 3rd language, that would add to the student's challenge and I get your point.  

[kgwilson]

2 hours ago, kiwiaviator said:

 

I could never understand why I could not fly into C or D airspace in Australia on my RAAus licence.

One simple reason. A head in the sand controlling attitude from CASA. If that ever changes GA could throw away their transponders & get ADSB in/out installed with Airservices having enough ground stations to ensure coverage, something they don't have with the existing radar & transponders 5000' and below. Good move by CAA NZ effectively making GA transponders redundant.

[MattP]

Its interesting that this topic and the weight increases keep coming up as soon as the last one is approved. Question for me is what is RAA trying to be, and what does it want to be? What do the members want it to be?

 

The more  endorsements / complexity = more training and admin. This equals cost that people evidently don't want. The other thing is careful what you wish for, as I'd be willing to bet that the CTA endorsement comes attached with a medical requirement, and that's going to result in cries from many who have chosen to go the RAA path for want of removing the complexity of medicals. 

 

Additionally, flying into C/D airports means ASIC, there's another $240 bucks thanks.

 

If you're that keen on CTA just get a medical, do the RPL and get the RPCT / RPCA. 

 

 

[Carbon Canary]

But the challenge is if your nearest two airports are Class D you don’t have a choice other than to travel 90 mins to a non controlled. However, eventually the medical requirement for PPLs may be lessened…… but that’s been war & peace for years.

 

Below is Australian Flying’s update on CASAs work plan :
 

Although it was a part of the original workplan, yesterday's update contains no reference to CASR Part 67, which is being amended to permit PPLs to fly without the need for a medical examination. A CASA Technical Working Group (TWG) recommended the changes to Part 67 in September this year, and CASA is believed to be in the process of amending the regulations.

[MattP]

I get it, I travel 60-90 to my closest class D to fly based on that being where the aircraft I fly are. I have closer C and G airfields but not with a choice / availability of anything I want to fly. I just take that as part of the cost of flying / process of being able to explain, "Why does it take most of the day when you're only going flying for an hour?" Note expletives removed. 🙂

 

I've taken to using the commute to get into the head space for flying and clear out the mind of all the daily things that float around in there and to start prepping for whatever I'm doing.

 

Regarding the medical requirement, that's a whole other debate as you pointed out and again never ending. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by MattP

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

I............................................

Additionally, flying into C/D airports means ASIC, there's another $240 bucks thanks.

I................................

 

 

You sure ? - my local is Class D and as far as I know ASIC not required.

[coljones]

4 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

You sure ? - my local is Class D and as far as I know ASIC not required.

That would appear to be the case at Camden but they haven't sought the protection of an ASIC and they don't have RPT.  If you decide to go to lunch and visit HARS at Shellharbour you will need an ASIC (now $290.40 - inc CC fee)

[johnm]

Some initiatives CASA now realises some ideas have not tracked as initially anticipated don’t work; work has identified thinking through the initial idea new dependencies and issues that require proposals to be re-sequenced and rescoped – it now seems bl@@dy obvious to CASA that this needs more work

[Carbon Canary]

Just circling back plus crossing threads a little here……

 

if there is a mid-air prang in Class C airspace or Class D for that matter, the pilot(s) are still ultimately ‘at fault’. Any aids in the cockpit to improve separation can only assist in addition to ATC instructions as long as the aid doesn’t overly distract.

[Blueadventures]

17 hours ago, kgwilson said:

I cannot work out what the issues are. I was flying in controlled airspace as a PPL with RA pilots & aircraft in NZ in the early 2000s. The only requirements were that the RA aircraft had to be fitted with a transponder and the RA pilot had to have a CTR endorsement. The RA guys used to fly in to Hamilton Airport which has international traffic and a lot or RPT as well as lots of flight training happening (CTC an English FTF had 40 Diamonds + the club students) quite a bit to get Avgas from the club bowser. I didn't know they were RA most of the time as all aircraft over there are on the same ZK register. The procrastination & lack of good valid reason for CASA's delay beggars belief.

Hammo only before tower opens.