Flying into Charlie airspace

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, coljones said:

That would appear to be the case at Camden but they haven't sought the protection of an ASIC and they don't have RPT.  If you decide to go to lunch and visit HARS at Shellharbour you will need an ASIC (now $290.40 - inc CC fee)

Shellharbour (WGong) ASIC just NUTS.

 

With cynical view, I note that RAAs is refusing to investigate incidents involving its members aircraft  - did anyone see an open letter to the Minister(s) regarding ASIC??????

[RossK]

For me CTA access isn't about landing at Class C & D airports, (why would I want to go to Moorabbin, Essendon or Bankstown etc)

It's about being able to transit the airspace.

ie

East Sale

Coffs Harbour

Sydney Basin

Greater Adelaide.

and i'm sure there are others.

These are all significant road blocks and the alternative routes either put you down really low, over tiger country or over deep water offshore, all of which create greater risk. Sometimes the alternative is to track significantly longer distances to avoid them all together.

[Carbon Canary]

Yes Ross, you are absolutely right.

 

Dick Smith penned an open letter to John Anderson a few years ago and spelled out that denied access to controlled airspace was a likely precursor to at least 2 fatalities west of Coffs. 

[MattP]

I'm going to be cynical here and say good luck. I can't remember the last time I got a response other than clearance unavailable remain octa from mel ctr trying to transit vfr. Even with a plan filed.

 

Ifr isn't a problem usually but they don't seem to want to deal with vfr lighties. Can't comment for other areas so not sure if mel are special or this is a wider occurance.

 

Generally if I'm planning to transit c anywhere I'll just file ifr. User pays at work!

[Bennyboy320]

Gold Coast are pretty good, 100% success rate in transiting their airspace, coastal you have to be very lucky due to RPT arrivals/departures but the Western VFR route always offered.

[kgwilson]

Coffs coastal is also pretty good most of the time & ASA allow RA through even though technically illegal. I know a couple of controllers there which probably helps as well. I have a PPL & they know that but I am illegal as I don't have a current class 2 medical. It is all so much BS & they are happy to let you go through especially if you ring the tower & ask. They will almost always OK it if there is no RPT due at the time.

 

ASA are largely responsible for the last fatality on 20/9/19 when they refused entry to a Mooney that wanted to go through Class D. It was early morning (before 8am) & there was a trainee controller on being supervised from Brisbane. They were offered seaward transit but did not want to change course so had to stay in class G & flew into a mountain. Father & son killed. I was in the air on the way to Airventure at Parkes at the time & it was 8/8 cloud below 5000.

Edited December 9, 2022 by kgwilson

[Bennyboy320]

33 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

ASA allow RA through even though technically illegal.

If the a/c & pilot are appropriately certified & qualified it’s not illegal, it’s not ASA’s responsibility to check your qualifications. 
 

P.S. I too have a valid CASA BFR & class 1 medical, plus my Foxbat is certified.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Bennyboy320

[kgwilson]

19 minutes ago, Bennyboy320 said:

If the a/c & pilot are appropriately certified & qualified it’s not illegal, it’s not ASA’s responsibility to check your qualifications. 
 

P.S. I too have a valid CASA BFR & class 1 medical, plus my Foxbat is certified.

I know that. It is just that the system is total BS for reasons I cannot fathom other than it being a power thing. As I mentioned in an earlier post the NZ CAA were and are very pragmatic and have been since I got involved in getting Hang Gliding accepted in the 1970s with clearance to 9500 feet & access to CTR with prior permission from the local tower. This was in 1978 & recreational aircraft were just accepted and welcomed in to the fold as another class of aircraft as technology and materials allowed them to exist.

[MattP]

It does seen somewhat more complicated than it needs to be considering in the USA there's a vfr corridor right over lax that gets used without aluminium raining from the sky daily. Seems there's either a cbf or workload issue, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the controllers here, I'm guessing they're following some pre defined guidance or are just too busy (understaffed) to deal with us.

 

Good to see though that there seems to be service in airservices around the place 

[Yenn]

The reason that RAAus don’t have these things is that they have only been around for 30 years and CASA only works slowly.

[facthunter]

In the early 60s DCA had a special VFR procedure into Sydney KS. CASA goes backwards. Getting approval through Williamtown was no problem. (Coastal). Nev

[skippydiesel]

On 10/12/2022 at 3:54 PM, Yenn said:

The reason that RAAus don’t have these things is that they have only been around for 30 years and CASA only works slowly.

AND they may be unduly prudent in their approach. 

[facthunter]

I think it's got a lot to do with ICAO  compliance.. OUR  Certificate has no international standing and Controlled airspace means what it says, even if that isn't popular with a lot of people. TRANSIT rights are something else for U/L's radio equipped and would be a safety plus for a lot of situations. where a "tiger Country" Option is the alternative at the moment. . Nev

[kgwilson]

24 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I think it's got a lot to do with ICAO  compliance.. OUR  Certificate has no international standing and Controlled airspace means what it says, even if that isn't popular with a lot of people. TRANSIT rights are something else for U/L's radio equipped and would be a safety plus for a lot of situations. where a "tiger Country" Option is the alternative at the moment. . Nev

So how can RA pilots in NZ fly into controlled class C & D airspace then? They do need ADSB out as a minimum now and presumably still a transponder but the old requirement of a CTR endorsement has been scrapped. Sounds perfectly logical to me. The only difference here is the rego system. All RA & GA aircraft in NZ are on the same ZK register.

[facthunter]

That's up to NZ to deal with as they see fit. Lazy and risk averse we are here. RAAus live on dispensations and now and again CASA get the jitters over that.. A lot of light aircraft pilots do not realise what  an IFR plan entails and it would be impossible to maintain currency without a lot of appropriate flying. 35 days applies to many situations relating to currency and that is a minimum experience not necessarily the desired situation re competency.  Nev 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

That's up to NZ to deal with as they see fit. Lazy and risk averse we are here. RAAus live on dispensations and now and again CASA get the jitters over that.. A lot of light aircraft pilots do not realise what  an IFR plan entails and it would be impossible to maintain currency without a lot of appropriate flying. 35 days applies to many situations relating to currency and that is a minimum experience not necessarily the desired situation re competency.  Nev 

But you wouldn't need to file an IFR plan - much less have IFR currency - just to deal with Class C and D control procedures, would you?  Many places require that you have "a plan" in the system, nowadays, before you even try for entry clearance but that's not the same as needing an IFR plan and knowledge of IFR procedures.  Sure, GA pilots who have never dealt with controlled airspace need to be taught the ropes and get some kind of endorsement.  But I suppose that in NZ, and other places, they just roll that competency into the main PPL (and recreational?) syllabus. Makes it all a lot simpler and more equitable.

[skippydiesel]

Whey back when, I was fling VFR GA,  the only time I was required to file a flight plan, was when planning to transition Richmond (military) air space,. If failing memory serves, for other controlled airspace, you could seek permission when in the air, before to entry ( I never did, preferring to lodge a flight plan, prior to departing home).

[facthunter]

A clearance through some controlled airspace doesn't mean you are an IFR (Instrument) rated pilot.  We may well be confusing some terms here. Lodging a plan does facilitate clearances and reduce delays, VFR is a specific condition with visibility criteria you must comply with on an ongoing basis.. which ALL should be familiar with.  Nev

[kgwilson]

The main reason for filing a flight plan is to make sure you will not be turned away if you need to transit CTR or land there. Mostly all I did was call in a Sarwatch by phone (landline in those days) or via radio while in the air. I got refused CTR entry on a few occasions due to weather or traffic & sometimes got asked to go over the top. It was always interesting looking down from 9500" & watching 747s & everything smaller landing & taking off underneath.

[MattP]

It's worth noting that if you want cta today as a recreational pilot, the mechanism exists by way of getting a medical, the rpl and the relevant endorsemrbts or a ppl. With an appropriately fitted out aircraft, you can then fly in cta raa reg or vh.

 

Now is this the most economical / easiest / logical approach, probably not. At least it differentiates this as being a function of the pilot not the registration of the aircraft. 

 

If you want to be able to fly in cta though I'd look at doing this rather than waiting an indeterminate amount of time for an raa cta endorsement that will have strings if it comes at all. Only down side is cost, but there's no such thing as cheap aviation.  Cheap is a relative term,  I just look at it as going broke more slowly. 

 

Unfortunately or by design by the time you figure out you might need the cta, you're past the stage where you would have chosen a path ga or raa ( not that it's binary). 

 

If you put a positive spin on it, you can pick up a new skill, and have the option to take 3pax up or more luggage. You might then decide you like / don't like ga or that cta isn't that important to you. 

[facthunter]

A lot of en route CTA is over "tiger"country You would normally avoid in a single engined Piston plane and sometimes a higher level be flown and it there's any ice you have to find lower levels off your planned track quickly. Nev

[RossK]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

It's worth noting that if you want cta today as a recreational pilot, the mechanism exists by way of getting a medical, the rpl and the relevant endorsemrbts or a ppl. With an appropriately fitted out aircraft, you can then fly in cta raa reg or vh.

 

Now is this the most economical / easiest / logical approach, probably not. At least it differentiates this as being a function of the pilot not the registration of the aircraft. 

 

If you want to be able to fly in cta though I'd look at doing this rather than waiting an indeterminate amount of time for an raa cta endorsement that will have strings if it comes at all. Only down side is cost, but there's no such thing as cheap aviation.  Cheap is a relative term,  I just look at it as going broke more slowly. 

 

Unfortunately or by design by the time you figure out you might need the cta, you're past the stage where you would have chosen a path ga or raa ( not that it's binary). 

 

If you put a positive spin on it, you can pick up a new skill, and have the option to take 3pax up or more luggage. You might then decide you like / don't like ga or that cta isn't that important to you. 

 

All true, but if RAAus drag their feet on this and the above is the only way to get CTA access, some will want to reduce that cost.

The easiest way for me to do that is transfer my AC reg to VH, and cancel my RAAus membership and registration as it's then superfluous and no longer required.

 

An LSA on VH reg and a Pilot with RPL basic med is going to have more privileges and less cost than an equivalent RAA member.

I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking along these lines. 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by RossK

[coljones]

16 minutes ago, RossK said:

 

All true, but if RAAus drag their feet on this and the above is the only way to get CTA access, some will want to reduce that cost.

The easiest way for me to do that is transfer my AC reg to VH, and cancel my RAAus membership and registration as it's then superfluous and no longer required.

 

An LSA on VH reg and a Pilot with RPL basic med is going to have more privileges and less cost than an equivalent RAA member.

I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking along these lines. 

 

 

I'm not sure that RAAus is dragging anything.  CASA is the devil in the detail.  An RAAus medical costs bugger all,  Class 2 medicals of any description can attract some horrific costs.

Edited December 14, 2022 by coljones
addition info

[kgwilson]

The only problem here is CASA. Almost everywhere else self declaration of medical health is now OK. Numerous people including directors of CASA have tried in vain to modify the culture but no-one has succeeded. Now we have a career public servant as director so there is no hope there. Flying in CTR should be afforded to every pilot no matter what they fly. Crikey I could fly in CTR in my Hang Glider in 1978 across the ditch so long as I rang the tower first (no mobiles or radios then). The bureaucratic processes are the most complex and daunting in the world and even CASA employees get confused when trying to explain stuff to you. Maybe we have to wait for all the current bureaucrats to retire or die before anything will change, but even then they will indoctrinate a new younger batch in the same old stuff.

 

One ex CASA employee said some time ago to one of my friends that if all aircraft stopped flying it wouldn't matter as they would still have heaps of work creating documents hundreds of pages long and making sure that everything was cross referenced to thousands of other documents that in turn would require updating to comply with new legislation or modifications to exiting legislation and everything would have to be  put out for consultation and review with months and years passing with nothing ever being done.

[MattP]

4 hours ago, RossK said:

 

All true, but if RAAus drag their feet on this and the above is the only way to get CTA access, some will want to reduce that cost.

The easiest way for me to do that is transfer my AC reg to VH, and cancel my RAAus membership and registration as it's then superfluous and no longer required.

 

An LSA on VH reg and a Pilot with RPL basic med is going to have more privileges and less cost than an equivalent RAA member.

I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking along these lines. 

 

 

No you’re not, had that conversation the other day with a mate as he wondered why he was paying for the raa membership as well as the other ppl related costs. For those of us not flying weight shift etc it doesn’t seem to make a ton of sense..  assuming you have a class 2 medical and are current etc.