ACCIDENT INVESTIGATIONS - ATSB and Recreational Aviation Australia

[turboplanner]

54 minutes ago, facthunter said:

That's for the above . ALL Airlines get documents and advice of inspections required or Parts replaced or retraining . Any Airline worthy of the name has a operational flight safety department. IF THEY do the appropriate thing , The Authority leaves them alone which the Companies prefer, naturally so often they impose a greater penalty than the Authority would have.  Nev

You realise we are talking about RA aircraft and the recent decision of Recreational Aviation Australia?

[facthunter]

Why shouldn't a significant section of the Flying community Administration that has regarded itself as the New GA Be similar to any Airline in principle and be active re accident and incident concerns, treatment and involvement?. Nev

[turboplanner]

14 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Why shouldn't a significant section of the Flying community Administration that has regarded itself as the New GA Be similar to any Airline in principle and be active re accident and incident concerns, treatment and involvement?. Nev

OK, all in favour of being in the New GA, and upping the RAA subscription to $5,000.00 to build ATSB2?

[facthunter]

Pathetic. Nothing like what point i'm trying to make. Nev

[jackc]

All getting too hard, should not be complex, but you can guarantee it will be…….many egos out to do battle and naturally MORE costs to membership.   Might be time to go VH?  Would that help?

[facthunter]

Jack, People I would trust have always recommended GA EXP. I don't think RAAus is going to get better. Both organisations lack experienced staff in practical matters aviation.   Nev

[pmccarthy]

Raa decision is good.  We have been paying for investigations but not seeing results. If there is no learning to be had, no point to activity.

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, facthunter said:

Jack, People I would trust have always recommended GA EXP. I don't think RAAus is going to get better. Both organisations lack experienced staff in practical matters aviation.   Nev

I can't speak for GA EXP, but in RAA, when people realised more effort was needed to curb red herring agendas, anf focus on running the organisation, the majority of the members stood back and did nothing, a few pursued their own agendas,  few tried to fix it then wimped it on the day, and some people actively put sticks through the spokes of the people trying to fix it. Virtually no one stood up against the few who wanted to change it to a limited company even though that meant we lost the protection built into Incorporated Associations by the ACT Department of Justice, and we lost the voluntary manpower that most Associations have to do things like we are talking about now, because LImited companies have to employ people, and the minimum number of people in order to make a profit/break even. If RAA is not going to get better, you don't crow about it, you fix it.

[old man emu]

Each State and Territory of Australia has some sort of Act  dealing with incorporated associations. I assume a common requirement of those Acts is that an incorporated organisation has to have a constitution. If my assumption is correct, then the original RAA must have had one, and a copy must be with the relevant government department, if only in archived form.

 

My questions are:

1. Does a Limited Company have something similar to a constitution?

2. If so, is it available to the Public to study?

[turboplanner]

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/raaus-constitution.pdf

[jackc]

Yeah well, i only got 4 pages in to Paragraph 6 and broke out in fits of laughter to the point of my wife asking what wrong with me?   Then commenting, am I reading something about planes 🙂. Yep I said, situation normal 🙂 

[turboplanner]

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/raaus-constitution.pdf

Would 6.1 (b) have been your sticking point?

[RFguy]

spacecraft ?

[RFguy]

new Jabiru rocket engine ?  what ?

[jackc]

For me, it’s both 6.1 a and b 🙂

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, RFguy said:

spacecraft ?

I'd say deliberately put in to trip someone up; worked.

[Old Koreelah]

On 2/12/2022 at 8:38 AM, old man emu said:

…I have no objection to members of the public recording the site before the arrival of investigators. Often those recordings save evidence that is otherwise lost.

OME you perhaps should add that those pix and footage should be strictly kept off social media.
I bet you’ve seen too often how family members have heard about an accident the wrong way. 
I sure have.

[turboplanner]

18 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

OME you perhaps should add that those pix and footage should be strictly kept off social media.
I bet you’ve seen too often how family members have heard about an accident the wrong way. 
I sure have.

Some have been in the next accident while taking photos. Two were killed this week exchanging names and addresses for a minor accident, so you make a good point, but phots do beat the hesaid/shesaid problem.

[old man emu]

On 03/12/2022 at 7:49 PM, Old Koreelah said:

OME you perhaps should add that those pix and footage should be strictly kept off social media.

Not being an addict to social meeja, it would not have crossed my mind that such things happen. However, how do you stop addicts from posting? 

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Not being an addict to social meeja, it would not have crossed my mind that such things happen. However, how do you stop addicts from posting? 

To be fair, inappropriate photos don't appear too often, although I think FB has an algorithm to refuse them anyway.

I

[Old Koreelah]

16 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Not being an addict to social meeja, it would not have crossed my mind that such things happen. However, how do you stop addicts from posting? 

Emergency personnel are officially directed not to post pix of accident scenes- presumably their organisation’s disciplinary processes apply. How to stop members if the public from doing so? We try to cover up the gory stuff and keep them away. 
 

I have been traumatised at an accident scene by the frantic arrival of the deceased’s sobbing hubby, who had been told about her prang by a well-meaning passer-by. Sure makes it harder for first responders.

 

Even worse is the wrong people being told their loved one has been in an accident. This can happen if a driver was using someone else’s ID. A case of this caused a family member, as a police person, years of agro when he did a death knock at the wrong household.

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

Emergency personnel are officially directed not to post pix of accident scenes- presumably their organisation’s disciplinary processes apply. How to stop members if the public from doing so? We try to cover up the gory stuff and keep them away. 
 

I have been traumatised at an accident scene by the frantic arrival of the deceased’s sobbing hubby, who had been told about her prang by a well-meaning passer-by. Sure makes it harder for first responders.

 

Even worse is the wrong people being told their loved one has been in an accident. This can happen if a driver was using someone else’s ID. A case of this caused a family member, as a police person, years of agro when he did a death knock at the wrong household.

All of the things you mention have been handled well around Australia by the separation of activities between Police, and ATSB investigators/RAA investigators, with RAA investigators being called in by Police rather than just showing up with the first witnesses. For a start, RAA may have to fly in from interstate, so I don't see these concerns as likely to happen.

 

Nobody has said the Police will be making any changes, so that line of evidence to the Coroner won't change.

 

This might be as simple as RAA advising the Police there are no issues to pursue because, for example the pilot flew into a powerline, or was doing aerobatics etc.

[Old Koreelah]

9 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

…This might be as simple as RAA advising the Police there are no issues to pursue because, for example the pilot flew into a powerline, or was doing aerobatics etc.

For a time there, despite the limitations around working with the Coroner, RAA was pretty good at passing on safety lessons to us.

[turboplanner]

14 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

For a time there, despite the limitations around working with the Coroner, RAA was pretty good at passing on safety lessons to us.

Yes, but we dumped them on the grounds that it was set up like a cricket club.