ATSB criticised for refusing to investigate Gympie plane crash that killed two pilots

[red750]

 

 

Read the report here.

[turboplanner]

"He said there was "self-administration arrangements" for the recreational sector to undertake its own accident investigations"

 

Maybe the Self Administering Organisation should step up.

 

 

 

 

[Thruster88]

The ATSB did a comprehensive investigation into the Mangalore mid air and issued some recommendations that have been ignored so why do a repeat?

 

The ATSB also strongly encourages the fitment of ADS‑B transmitting, receiving and display devices as they significantly assist the identification and avoidance of conflicting traffic. The continuous positional information that ADS‑B provides can highlight a developing situation many minutes before it becomes hazardous – a significant improvement on both point‑in‑time radio traffic advice and ‘see‑and‑avoid’. The ATSB also notes that ADS‑B receivers, suitable for use on aircraft operating under both the instrument or visual flight rules, are currently available within Australia at low cost and can be used in aircraft without any additional regulatory approval or expense.

It is also important to recognise however that ADS‑B cannot be relied upon to display all nearby traffic so effective use of radio remains a primary defence in avoiding mid‑air collisions. In that context pilots need to make all required broadcasts detailed in the Aeronautical Information Publication, even if there is no known traffic, and respond to broadcasts if a potential traffic conflict is identified.

 

 Above from the ATSB, my take is ADS-B could be relied upon if all aircraft were equipped with a SkyEcho2 or better.  

Edited December 4, 2022 by Thruster88

[facthunter]

For many years now the ATSB have made it known that quite a few accidents will not be investigated by them due to financial constraints. Typical are aerobatic prangs where an on the edge event went wrong. This IS legal so I doubt they will change their mind on this.  Nev

[facthunter]

 I doubt RAAus has the authority. They can assist the POLICE if requested by them.   Nev

[Thruster88]

Let's not forget we RAAus members have had the message from management saying that any pilot using a screen for traffic awareness is a complete idiot and a danger to airspace. I read it in the sport pilot mag.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

 I doubt RAAus has the authority. They can assist the POLICE if requested by them.   Nev

We talked about that previously; check the statement in this thread.

[jackc]

Maybe RAAus are like ATSB and don’t want to spend the money?  Just let the Police do a 3 line report and the Coroner can spend 2 minutes….say death by mis adventure……next case please 😞 

[old man emu]

Mr Bouttell said his group had conducted investigations in the past, but it should not have to. "Enough is enough on the basis that we expose our people, our own employees and volunteers, to some pretty horrific scenes," he said.

 

What an absolute fvckwit! Try going out on a wintry Southern Highlands day to to recover chunks of the bodies from treetops and paddocks of four young people whose aeroplane hit the ground at cruise speed on a flight from Sydney to the snowfields. Then later in the week watch as Rescue Squad members remove the broken mangled bodies of a middle-aged couple from a pile of twisted metal jammed under the bull bar of a semi, so that you can begin your evidence collection to determine the cause of the collision. Yes. These scenes are horrific, but when that's your job, they are expected, because you have sworn to serve not only the Crown via the Coroner, but the relatives who want to know how they lost their loved ones. 

It does take its toll. Many an accident investigator or Crime Scene Examiner has either thrown in the towel, or chewed a .38 barrel as a result of PTSD. But before those tragedies took place they have done their duty to all involved, and maybe, on occasion, their work has resulted in improved safety. Did your early C ommodore or Falcon have airbags?

[jackc]

WHY do we pay membership? Plane rego? Certificates etc?   And RAAus wants play in its sandpits of choice?

IF it’s people don’t want to do what comes with their job, then find another job and let others who are prepared to do it, take it on.

Ya gotta take the good with the bad in this life. Go hard OR…..go home 🙂 

[pmccarthy]

ATSB has a limited budget and in future will not investigate all GA fatals unless the investigation is likely to lead to insights that prevent future serious accidents ie multiple fatals.

[aro]

Does RAA pay (market rate) for people to do this? Or are they volunteers? Somehow I doubt RAA has the structure or budget to support this type of activity.

 

48 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Many an accident investigator or Crime Scene Examiner has either thrown in the towel, or chewed a .38 barrel as a result of PTSD.

Hard to criticise someone who doesn't want that job!

[turboplanner]

6 minutes ago, aro said:

Does RAA pay (market rate) for people to do this? Or are they volunteers? Somehow I doubt RAA has the structure or budget to support this type of activity.

 

Hard to criticise someone who doesn't want that job!

It says a little bit about RAA Ltd that this information isn't readily known.

In the Association days the person was well known, attended functions to talk about safety and regularly posted safety information, and was respected by the members for his skill. Still may well be the same person.

[jackc]

A personal friend of mine now retired was a Forensic Pathologist amongst other things. In his working life he did 11,000 autopsies and lived at Coronial Inquests etc.  He was very dedicated to his work. His knowledge and experience would be a big loss to the profession.  But he loved his work and obviously cut out for it.   I always say, don’t like your job? Then ditch it and do something else, no matter what……..

[aro]

4 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

It says a little bit about RAA Ltd that this information isn't readily known.

In the Association days the person was well known

It might be readily known, but I don't know it.

 

I can't see how you would expect a single person to do it properly. You need multiple people, backed up by counselling etc. if they are expected to attend accident scenes or investigate accidents involving people they knew. A budget to spend on specialist reports if necessary.

 

A budget to do real accident investigations probably starts at several million dollars.

[turboplanner]

16 minutes ago, aro said:

It might be readily known, but I don't know it.

 

I can't see how you would expect a single person to do it properly. You need multiple people, backed up by counselling etc. if they are expected to attend accident scenes or investigate accidents involving people they knew. A budget to spend on specialist reports if necessary.

 

A budget to do real accident investigations probably starts at several million dollars.

People don't die that often, let's say 8 this year, so I think one person could handle it; there's a time delay for requests to come back etc so there would probaby be half a dozen cases in the system rolling over all the time. Total cost around $600,000/year divided by 10,000 fees = $60.00 per member extra.

[pmccarthy]

If you investigate fatals only you learn nothing statistically valid about the cause of accidents, you have to have an accident and incident reporting system that works, 

[turboplanner]

25 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

If you investigate fatals only you learn nothing statistically valid about the cause of accidents, you have to have an accident and incident reporting system that works, 

Yes, I hadn't thought that through. Currently it appears from the reports that one person is editing reports which come in from the pilot.A lot of those have been reasonable, but where they get flakey it would be good for RAA to question the pilot. If the person has to travel, then expenses climb.

 

However, we don't get to choose any system. RAA Ltd makes its own decisions.

[jackc]

Well, RAA is all we have and they are our peak body and regulator and are beholden  to CASA?  IF no one wants to care much about investigations that’s it, party is over…….

[old man emu]

10 hours ago, jackc said:

A personal friend of mine now retired was a Forensic Pathologist

Working in a morgue doing post mortems is not the same as attending the scenes deaths. Sometimes the condition of the body can be unpleasant, but I reckon that your friend had developed a means to  create a distance between the living human and the lifeless mass of flesh and bone on the autopsy table. Nothing wrong with that. It's the method I used.

 

What you have to remember is that accident investigators usually don't get to the site until well after the dead and injured have been removed, so they don't see the deceased or injured as first responders do. The information that comes from the body that helps with the overall investigation comes from the Forensic Pathologist's report - a few sheets of paper.

 

How much would it cost to employ an investigator? Let's say $150K per annum for all salary components. Allow $100K for travel accommodation. Add to that, non-recurring set up expenses for facilities, say $250K. An alternative would be to contract out the work, but I suspect that method would be more expensive, cause they usually are.

[jackc]

Well, regulators have a responsibility to do their job, if that involves investigation then so be it.  They bone us IF we break any rules they make……but that’s what they see as the fun in their job. Just like Police and traffic radars, cameras etc.  The smokos  consists of bragging right for their daily ‘kills’. That happens everywhere rules/laws are enforced.

Paramedics join the Ambulance Service and must realise what they are into……DONT do it if you don’t think you are upto it.

I joined the Military ‘69 to ‘75 knowing full well I could have to at worse shoot people dead and some days have the best of fun doing my job.

Maybe this is how Aviation should work……everyone for him/her self??

[turboplanner]

This thread started with a report that a family criticised ATSB for not investigating the Gympie collision.

The family will be getting an answer from a Coroner's investigation in this case.

Investigations right back from the Department of Civil Aviation were done to provide information which might prevent future repeated incidents.

If you think about it, if there were no radio transmissions and if neither aircaft were in prohibited airspace, what could you investigate?

 

[jackc]

There were allegedly quite a few radio transmissions by the Glider, NONE from the other aircraft?

[facthunter]

Little planes don't always crash in easily accessed places, either Australia is about the size of the USA. You will Pay for what resources you put into it and what will be the outcome? Inconclusive, often. You are in the same situation as the ATSB eventually. Nev

[turboplanner]

10 minutes ago, jackc said:

There were allegedly quite a few radio transmissions by the Glider, NONE from the other aircraft?

As an investigator, what does that tell you.