Crash at Caiguna today 16/12/22.

[facthunter]

Maintaining the runway heading as TRACK is taught early, same with paralleling on the downwind and other legs of the circuit. Delay lift -off in a strong crosswind to achieve a positive lift off and prevent a second contact with the runway. This should not be new to anybody.  This is in response to comment not otherwise related to the Accident and nothing inferred.  Nev

Edited December 19, 2022 by facthunter

[Garfly]

18 minutes ago, RFguy said:

***...If once airborne, you turn into the wind (if say, 30 deg left of the TO roll + runway direction) , your ground speed will be minimized, and thus distance from  the strip will be minimized.  And , if you decide not to turn around (for whatever reason) and choose to go straight ahead, the track into the wind  will result in the lowest ground speed when you touch down , so it might hurt less.

 

There are of course many variables. Generally we'll not deviate from the runway heading until at least 500 feet, and of course never turn counter circuit direction < 1500' .  So the above is a 'special case'. Anyhow cannot plan for EFATO so good reason to KNOW what the wind direction is on TO roll.

Yes, I don't think there's any doubt about any of that. 

[Thruster88]

39 minutes ago, facthunter said:

EFATO general advice  is to not turn unless into a more headwind situation and /or avoid major obstacles and don't lose control of the aircraft.  Nev

The "don't lose control of the aircraft " (maintain sufficient airspeed)  is the number one thing. 

[facthunter]

I have great  concern about NOT teaching low level flying in RAAus It;s not permitted unless the student is proposing to do cattle Mustering. The reasoning being IF you are taught it you will do it?? There are times when you have to do it so HOW do you cope when it happens? I think this philosophy is flawed and shows wilful neglect and is irresponsible to a pilots necessary skills base. If most of your training was in good calm conditions are you equipped for the real world when you are let loose?  I was well covered in the GA syllabus which I taught, so why is it not needed for U/Ls?  You should be able to get the training IF YOU want IT. It ALL makes you  safer..  Nev

[Thruster88]

Totally agree Nev, I have over 500 hours flying low level, started before the endorsement became a thing. Only ever did it on my and friends farms that I knew very well. Don't do it now because of the risks. It is fun and really hones one skills having that ground reference.  

[Thruster88]

I would add the risks involved in widespread teaching of low level flying would outweigh any benefits. 

[RFguy]

Low level circuits in unfriendly weather is taught in RA

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

Low level circuits in unfriendly weather is taught in RA

How low do you go

[Carbon Canary]

I was taught 500’ circuits in GA.  I was fortunate that I did my early training at an ALA so this was possible. My later training was in Class D and there would be no way you could do 500’ circuits.

[jackc]

In respect of this crash, I wonder how many hours in the pilots log  for last 12 months?  What about last BFR?  Experience on aircraft type?  Overall condition of aircraft? Experience in flying the type of conditions present on the day?

Since no investigation? We won’t know, apart from bush opinions and gossip? 

 

[Kiwi]

2 hours ago, Carbon Canary said:

I was taught 500’ circuits in GA.  I was fortunate that I did my early training at an ALA so this was possible. My later training was in Class D and there would be no way you could do 500’ circuits.

Did them at Archerfield in the mid 90's, request low level circuits and if they can accommodate they will let you. (Never said no to me)

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, jackc said:

In respect of this crash, I wonder how many hours in the pilots log  for last 12 months?  What about last BFR?  Experience on aircraft type?  Overall condition of aircraft? Experience in flying the type of conditions present on the day?

Since no investigation? We won’t know, apart from bush opinions and gossip? 

 

You will if the Coroner considers it relevant.

[RFguy]

I learned 500 ' circuits, which are close to the strip with a 15 knots steady pure crosswind on the grass strip  with low cloud.  the grass strip made those limit crosswind landings a little more forgiving....  With the wind about 25+kts at 500' the drift was impressive and made flying circuits quite a bit of fun.

 

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, RFguy said:

I learned 500 ' circuits, which are close to the strip with a 15 knots steady pure crosswind on the grass strip  with low cloud.  the grass strip made those limit crosswind landings a little more forgiving....  With the wind about 25+kts at 500' the drift was impressive and made flying circuits quite a bit of fun.

 

What about the Trikes, Drifters etc inbound for their mandatory 500' circuit?

[RFguy]

what about them ? sorry I dont understand the question.

Edited December 19, 2022 by RFguy

[BrendAn]

12 minutes ago, RFguy said:

what about them ? sorry I dont understand the question.

I think he means you are flying around in the circuit height reserved for under 55 knots. 

[BrendAn]

You should have been in a 1000ft circuit.

[RFguy]

No

30 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

You should have been in a 1000ft circuit.

Yes, under normal circumstances . These were operational constraints that required it.  

Wait till you do some circuits with low cloud and intermittant drizzle , your circuits will be something like 700' etc etc 

ANyway no trike is going to be out in that weather. and no trike should dare come near a busy aerodrome without a radio. 
Turbs I think your comment is non sensical, without qualification. 
 

Edited December 19, 2022 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

58 minutes ago, RFguy said:

No

Yes, under normal circumstances . These were operational constraints that required it.  

Wait till you do some circuits with low cloud and intermittant drizzle , your circuits will be something like 700' etc etc 

ANyway no trike is going to be out in that weather. and no trike should dare come near a busy aerodrome without a radio. 
Turbs I think your comment is non sensical, without qualification. 
 

You could kill someone, so I'd suggest rather than comment that something is nonsensical, you study the rules you are supposed to be flying under. Last time I looked and posted them on this site they were clear enough for anyone to avoid inventing a scenario to suit themselves. There is a a procedure for weather which is marginal to the point that a landing is necessary and it is called a Precautionary Landing, and it involves specific jobs to ensure the safety of the people in the aircraft such as zeroing the DG and specific tasks for each circuit, and it is taught and practised away from any airfields. One of the reckless attitudes associated with low volume airfields is the belief that no one else is around. There are plenty of ATSB reports to learn that lesson.

[Kiwi]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

What about the Trikes, Drifters etc inbound for their mandatory 500' circuit?

 

Not mandatory going by CASA, the wording is "should"

[jackc]

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

You will if the Coroner considers it relevant.

With a lack of verifiable information, the Coroner will probably trot out the old ‘Death By Misadventure’ finding? 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

You could kill someone, so I'd suggest rather than comment that something is nonsensical, you study the rules you are supposed to be flying under. Last time I looked and posted them on this site they were clear enough for anyone to avoid inventing a scenario to suit themselves. There is a a procedure for weather which is marginal to the point that a landing is necessary and it is called a Precautionary Landing, and it involves specific jobs to ensure the safety of the people in the aircraft such as zeroing the DG and specific tasks for each circuit, and it is taught and practised away from any airfields. One of the reckless attitudes associated with low volume airfields is the belief that no one else is around. There are plenty of ATSB reports to learn that lesson.

 

Low level circuits are part of the RAAus (and CASA) training syllabus so they should be trained for, and practised, at airports, as they are, in fact, every day. Following the syllabus is a rule, too.

Obviously, normal traffic separation procedures apply. Just because there might, on the off-chance, be some unknown, NORDO, slower craft sharing that 500' circuit at any given time, does not a prohibition make.  The intruder would, after all, be on your same level; whoever's behind should see the one in front.  Speed differentials, within reason, can be managed, as they commonly are in 1000' circuits - and at 1500'.

 

No one needs to be killing anyone; or even violating rules.

 

Precautionary landings are something else again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Garfly

[kgwilson]

Absolutely. I was trained at a towered airport and low level circuits were always taught and approved by the controllers. Sometimes the controller would request a low level circuit as a way of getting you round quicker usually due to an incoming RPT.

 

We have everything from Kingairs to powered parachutes at South Grafton with radios being mandatory. Announce what you are doing and make appropriate position calls & there is no problem.

[Kenlsa]

We run glider training as well at Gawler.
All should be aware that gliders may be flying contrary to normal circuit direction. Not unusual to turn left on take off in a powered plane then to watch the glider turn right after launch. Then the tug will be Released at 2500ft then it will rapidly descend to 500 feet and land on any runway they want, but the runway is usually one that permits a rapid hook up of the next glider. An aircraft carrier has nothing on our operation.

 

ken

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, Kiwi said:

 

Not mandatory going by CASA, the wording is "should"

Yes, I shouldn't have gone from memory and used the word "Mandatory".

 

However, the word "should" is defined as "used to indicate obligation, duty or correctness"

 

and you missed out the couple: "By Convention"

 

"By Convention" is defined as "a way of doing something or appearing that is considered usual and correct."

 

These two are coupled together in this context, and both are coupled with a safety procedure.

 

As Kiwi pointed out this is not a prescriptive regulation.

So if you're at the wrong level and there's an accident and someone sues you good luck with 

insurance and a defence against a duty of care breach.