Filling high-wing tanks

[pmccarthy]

I just had another disaster, fuel all over the wing and over me. Does anyone have suggestions for filling high-wing tanks? I transfer fuel to a 10-litre red plastic can, standing on a good platform, but getting it into the tank is the problem.  Have tried several funnels but they all fall over at some stage. My small Mr Funnel is the worst. Have tried with and without the funnel that screws into the can. I have never had a problem filling low-wing aircraft.

 

Am I doing something fundamentally wrong, or does everyone have this problem? I have read the posts about using different types of pumps and perhaps will go that way but surely most people just fill from jerry cans.

 

[facthunter]

You are not alone with your problem on high wing planes.. What you could have at home base may not be convenient to carry with you. A good plastic 10 litre container with pouring nozzle  works if you aren't in a hurry.. and weighs little.   Nev

[RFguy]

an intristically safe (IS) electric pump and hose? 

dont have the switch for the pump (unless it is also IS rated ) anywhere near the filler... they arc.. 

 

or hand driven pump....

[440032]

https://macnaught.com/documents/instruction_manual/im_hp.pdf

 

or

 

https://shop.coles.com.au/a/national/product/redheads-matches-8674347p?uztq=46abcbb7e16253b0cdc3e6c5bbe6a3f0&cid=col_cpc_Generic|ColesSupermarkets|PLA|Household|Australia|Broad&s_kwcid=AL!12693!3!495221477975!!!u!1930593814556!&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-oqdBhDfARIsAO0TrGGeKqzlTA6spCQz5esJwozhr4NIdkXekcKA-lKFPkJIOee0jS1YXo0aAkslEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by 440032

[onetrack]

Peter - I recently acquired a very neat rotary hand pump made by MacNaught, it's designed to handle nearly every chemical and fuel type known - and it's all plastic (polypropylene and Ryton) and very light (2.1Kgs).

 

However, as with all hand pumps, you do need to drain it thoroughly before stowing it, and probably make a carry bag for it. The suction pipe is in 3 sections that screw together, so it's adjustable for multiple size containers.

 

The rotary pump will pump in both directions, meaning you can reverse the pumping direction to pump the pump dry - or you can even use it to suck fuel from tanks, back into containers.

 

Otherwise, you make up a small electric refuelling pump, and I believe Skippy is the bloke who has posted extensively on here before, about what he uses.

 

I still have reservations about utilising non-flameproof 12V wiring around petrol transfer methods.

 

https://www.revolutionindustrial.com.au/macnaught-polypropylene-rotary-chemical-transfer-pump-anti-corrosion-chemical-adblue-macp200-l-macp200?

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by onetrack

[pmccarthy]

58 minutes ago, 440032 said:

https://macnaught.com/documents/instruction_manual/im_hp.pdf

 

or

 

https://shop.coles.com.au/a/national/product/redheads-matches-8674347p?uztq=46abcbb7e16253b0cdc3e6c5bbe6a3f0&cid=col_cpc_Generic|ColesSupermarkets|PLA|Household|Australia|Broad&s_kwcid=AL!12693!3!495221477975!!!u!1930593814556!&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-oqdBhDfARIsAO0TrGGeKqzlTA6spCQz5esJwozhr4NIdkXekcKA-lKFPkJIOee0jS1YXo0aAkslEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

 

I think the Redheads are for single-seaters.

[pmccarthy]

Onetrack, that pumps lists alcohol and diesel among other things but not, I think, petrol. May be OK, but...?

[skippydiesel]

Maaate! this topic has been done to death - try doing a search.

 

I made a perfectly good 12V fuel (petrol) transfer pump out of a Chines copy of a Holly positive displacement pump for under $100. I have been using it for about 8 years now without any issues. - you will find all the details in your search. Get back to me if you cant find it.

[skippydiesel]

The big problem (asides from cost) with  pumps that are designed for petrol transfer is that most require a stable tank to draw from.  In practise this means having an assistant or a "hooked" nozzle that will stay in place while pumping.

 

Also most of the hand pumps are bulky and heavy (although Onetracks's one looks petty good). They are usually designed for 60-240L drums and do not do well pumping out of 20 L containers. Those of us who carry 20L fuel bladders, for refilling away from home ,would not be able to use a hand pump, without an assistant.

 

There will always be concerns/risks about electricity and fuel in close proximity but this can be managed by using quality wire & connections, shielding your on/off switch and using an earth lead to the aircraft. Always transfer fuel in a well ventilated location (outside is good). Spark, from static or faulty connection/contact can & does cause ignition BUT its not common and is usually accompanied by other factors leading to the incident.

 

I would speculate there is more risk to your health and your aircraft from spillage (than ignition). Petrol  is a known carcinogen, does not do well in your eyes and is generally unpleasant to have splashed on your clothing/skin. Your aircrafts paint may be adversely effected as may "plastic" canopy's & other fittings, to say nothing of pooling in cavities.

Edited December 22, 2022 by skippydiesel

[IBob]

Pmccarthy I fuel using a 20L container with one of those bendy corrugated spouts.
I lift the full container onto the top of the steps and swipe the bottom edge with my hands to make sure it has not picked up any dirt or grit.
I then lift the container onto the wing and rest it, tilted on the skin over the main spar.

Positioning it to allow max eventual tilt, I bend over the nozzle to point at the funnel and tilt further to start the flow, increasing the tilt until the nozzle is well into the funnel.

This allows me to transfer approx. 10L to one tank, and with no spillage.
I then repeat the setup at the other tank, but in this case I have to lift the tank (instead of resting it tilted on the wing) to get enough tilt. I usually brace an elbow over the mainspar to steady my hold, and I do sometimes get a small amount of splash onto the wing when the flow first starts. Once in position and filling, I have no other spillage.

 

I'm not particularly strong in shoulders or arms, initially I thought I would have a lot more trouble with this than I now do (though I have certainly had the occasional larger splash).

I find the bendy nozzle is a big help.
I use a cheap plastic funnel about 140mm dia. I'm sure the small Mr Funnel would be more challenging for that second tank.

I wonder if the 20L container might almost be easier to handle in some ways?
 

 

[onetrack]

Peter, here's the full list of chemical compatibility for the polypropylene MacNaught rotary pump. It shows "excellent" (A) compatibility with "Gasoline, high aromatic", and "Gasoline, leaded".

 

https://www.aimsindustrial.com.au/assets/files/Macnaught-L-MACP200-Rotary-Chemical-Pump-Chemical-Compatability-Rating.pdf

[jackc]

Use 10 litre steel jerry cans, filled from 20 litr ones, with large Mr Funnel works a treat.  Too old lifting 20 litre cans these days 🙂 

[spacesailor]

Cheap and simple ! .

plastic bucket , hole in bottom , smaller than funnel , hight  to suit length of funnel when end is in filler hole  .

any saw will cut bucket made of plastic .

please dispose of nicely when you have finished .

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

Peter, here's the full list of chemical compatibility for the polypropylene MacNaught rotary pump. It shows "excellent" (A) compatibility with "Gasoline, high aromatic", and "Gasoline, leaded".

 

https://www.aimsindustrial.com.au/assets/files/Macnaught-L-MACP200-Rotary-Chemical-Pump-Chemical-Compatability-Rating.pdf

All good Onetrack - that is until you try to use it on a 20L fuel container "Compatible with 60-205L drums (3 additional bung adapters)" Peter will find that he will need , at the very least, both hands , preferably three or four:

• One hand to turn the pump handle,
• One to steady the pump in the 20 L fuel container
• One to steady the 20 L fuel container
• One to hold/direct the nozzle (or make a hook bend compatible with your aircraft fuel tank)

If he takes it on an away trip & wants to use 20L bladders (collapse fuel tanks) he may need even more assistance as they offer no structural support at all

[skippydiesel]

There was a time when I could hold a 20L fuel container above my head almost indefinitely, without so much a  quiver. Unfortunately those days are long gone.

Now in my latter years, I find I must use my brain more than my vanishing brawn.

If you want an efficient , cost effective fuel refuelling system, that is also relatively light/portable, will suck out of any 20L container, lift fuel effectively to at least 2-3 m (I have never tested the max head) and if so desired run of 12V aircraft power, you will need to find a 12 volt petrol compatible, positive displacement (vain) pump - this is what I have done and you can too.

For the not so young, this solution removes all the physical effort, at minimal cost and as far as I am concerned would have a safety standard not so far behind a hand pump/pour and most likely equal to a store purchased item (that is if you can find one - I didn't)

[SAJ]

I used to use a JROCPRODUCT fuel transfer pump, it pumped 9 Lt min and had a cutoff switch just like a fuel bouser. I used it for couple of years and it was great, but I didn't like putting 20 Lt jerry cans on my Jabiru wing. So I came up with another refueling system, I mounted a 90 gallon an hour Hollie fuel pump on my firewall connected to a 4-pin plug mounted on left hand side of my dash and then connected back to the battery, I have a 2 m length of 4 wire cable with an ON/OFF switch at one end and the other end plugs into the 4-pin plug, I have 2 quick connect fittings at the bottom of my firewall that go to the IN and OUT on the Hollie fuel pump , I then have two lengths of 12mm clear  hose with quick connect fittings, one hose is a meter long and goes from my 20 Lt jerry can near my nose wheel to the IN quick connect on the Hollie pump, the OUT hose is 3m long and I can reach both fuel tank. I can put my Mr. Funnel in my wing tank, put the hose into the bottom of the funnel and it stays there, I turn on the switch and it takes 5 minutes to pump 20 Lt.

Works a treat.

 

[onetrack]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

All good Onetrack - that is until you try to use it on a 20L fuel container "Compatible with 60-205L drums (3 additional bung adapters)" Peter will find that he will need , at the very least, both hands , preferably three or four:

• One hand to turn the pump handle,
• One to steady the pump in the 20 L fuel container
• One to steady the 20 L fuel container
• One to hold/direct the nozzle (or make a hook bend compatible with your aircraft fuel tank)

If he takes it on an away trip & wants to use 20L bladders (collapse fuel tanks) he may need even more assistance as they offer no structural support at all

Skippy - All 20L containers sit flat on the ground, AFAIK. The pump is all that needs to be held - in one hand, while you rotate the handle with the other hand. The hose handpiece has a bend in it, and it also has a hook on it.

Perhaps the only modification needed, may be a new section of suction pipe, as the "belled" ends of the MacNaught suction pipe are designed to hold the foot valve, and I suspect they may not fit into the smaller openings of 20L containers.

I'm currently using my MacNaught poly pump in 60L and 200L drums. I can assure you, the MacNaught pump is very light to handle, nothing like the agricultural quart stroke/litre stroke MacNaught pump.

I've done my time on MacNaught quart stroke pumps, they're good contractors/farmers pumps, but not suitable for carrying in aircraft, thanks to their cast-iron and steel construction.

[skippydiesel]

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

Skippy - All 20L containers sit flat on the ground, AFAIK. The pump is all that needs to be held - in one hand, while you rotate the handle with the other hand. The hose handpiece has a bend in it, and it also has a hook on it.

Perhaps the only modification needed, may be a new section of suction pipe, as the "belled" ends of the MacNaught suction pipe are designed to hold the foot valve, and I suspect they may not fit into the smaller openings of 20L containers.

I'm currently using my MacNaught poly pump in 60L and 200L drums. I can assure you, the MacNaught pump is very light to handle, nothing like the agricultural quart stroke/litre stroke MacNaught pump.

I've done my time on MacNaught quart stroke pumps, they're good contractors/farmers pumps, but not suitable for carrying in aircraft, thanks to their cast-iron and steel construction.

Onetrack - Yes they (20L) sit flat but they are not so stable as a circular bottom 60 litre or larger drum and tend to wobble from side to side (increasingly so, as they empty). This will be exacerbated on an uneven surface eg grass

 

Also I use 20L x 2 collapsible fuel  bladders, for away trips - they are much less stable than a regular rectangular cross section 20 L fuel container. There is no way I could safely empty a 20 L bladder with a hand operated pump.

 

I like SAJ's solution - I believe Pipistrel offers  a similar factory version of this concept .

[Bruce Tuncks]

Years ago, a guy published how he filled his wing-tanks from a 44 gallon drum ( mounted on a sack-truck ) by pumping air into the drum. Well the safety complaints were deafening ! So I like skippy's idea, but in the meantime the hand-pump will do. We have the drums on a wheeled base to easily push them around.

Thee worst bit is taking the full drums off the trailer. We use a pair of aluminium ramps for this but the drum is just real heavy.

Any ideas would be appreciated... it is not an option for us to get the big tanker truck to come to the airfield just for us.

[skippydiesel]

43 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Years ago, a guy published how he filled his wing-tanks from a 44 gallon drum ( mounted on a sack-truck ) by pumping air into the drum. Well the safety complaints were deafening ! So I like skippy's idea, but in the meantime the hand-pump will do. We have the drums on a wheeled base to easily push them around.

Thee worst bit is taking the full drums off the trailer. We use a pair of aluminium ramps for this but the drum is just real heavy.

Any ideas would be appreciated... it is not an option for us to get the big tanker truck to come to the airfield just for us.

Hi Bruce,

 

If you are in a  group/club situation (purchasing power) 44 gallon drums are they way to go. I would suggest having it/them permanently on a road registered , nice cheap box trailer AND purchasing an industrial quality 12 volt refueling pump, which more than likely, will have its own replaceable filter system. Going on outdated costings, I would estimate about $2-3K. So easy to fill up at your preferred servo and transport to/from airfield AND don't forget the potential for the club to claim the road tax back on the fuel so purchased.

 

The pressurisation of the fuel container idea has been around for a long while (sort of tried it myself) - you can purchase the Tanami system https://www.rv4x4.net.au/tanami-pump-metal-jerry-can-transfer-pump-diesel-y however you will need a suitable compressor to get the system to work.

 

I ended up with my concept because I wanted; low cost, ease of transport, compatibility with existing 12 V systems and fuel containers

[onetrack]

Quote

So easy to fill up at your preferred servo and transport to/from airfield

Not in my neck of the woods, and possibly against refuelling regulations in every other State. If you try to refill even a jerrycan sitting in a vehicle (ute or anything else), the servo operators will de-activated the bowser until they can see the jerrycan sitting on the ground. 

This regulation is based on reducing static fires potential, and there's hardly a single servo in W.A. where you can refuel a petrol fuel container, that's sitting in a vehicle.

And as for trying to fill a 200L petrol drum from a servo, good luck with that. There are signs in every servo stating that 20L (or 25L) containers are the maximum allowed size for refuelling.

Once again, regulations around fire, obstruction to other customers waiting to refuel, and the quantity of fuel being splashed around.

 

https://www.artc.com.au/uploads/Safety-Alert_2009-09-01.pdf

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by onetrack

[onetrack]

Bruce - Rolling 200L drums off trays and onto two or three small, worn-out passenger tyres used to be the standard modus operandi for unloading drums.

Unfortunately, 200L drums have become lighter and lighter construction over the years, and many drums today will not withstand being dropped onto used tyres any more, they will buckle.

 

On that basis, one of the ute-mounted lightweight cranes, such as the Backease hoist, are a useful addition to a ute tray.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

Not in my neck of the woods, and possibly against refuelling regulations in every other State. If you try to refill even a jerrycan sitting in a vehicle (ute or anything else), the servo operators will de-activated the bowser until they can see the jerrycan sitting on the ground. 

This regulation is based on reducing static fires potential, and there's hardly a single servo in W.A. where you can refuel a petrol fuel container, that's sitting in a vehicle.

And as for trying to fill a 200L petrol drum from a servo, good luck with that. There are signs in every servo stating that 20L (or 25L) containers are the maximum allowed size for refuelling.

Once again, regulations around fire, obstruction to other customers waiting to refuel, and the quantity of fuel being splashed around.

 

https://www.artc.com.au/uploads/Safety-Alert_2009-09-01.pdf

 

OMG! the Nany State Strikes again - What do all the farmers do? Not everything runs on diesel and only big operators would find it economic to truck in petrol.

 

Never seen the like in NSW but perhaps WA is a hint of future draconian rule. Bureaucracies seem to be on some sot of race to the bottom. You will probably be banned from flying non certified aircraft, FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY.

 

Could you get a tanker to fill your 44 on site?

 

 

[onetrack]

Fuel distribution agents in W.A. can still deliver 200L drums of ULP to you, as long as you are running a business and initiate a business account with them. But 200L drums of ULP and diesel are extremely rare today, as the major oil companies declined to handle 200L drums of fuel (even diesel) from the late 1980's, citing the excessive cost of handling drums, the potential for employee injury, and low demand. 

 

Virtually all contractors and farmers today have bulk fuel facilities in the form of large storage tanks and dedicated fuel trailers, and dedicated diesel tanks for ute trays with inbuilt 12V/24V pumps.

Very few contractors or farmers use much petrol today, the major use is jerry cans for fuelling small engines such as pumps.

There are laws restricting bulk petrol transport, even in 200L drums, and transporting more than the specified quantity (500kgs) in a vehicle requires Dangerous Goods licencing and training.

 

The biggest single problem associated with petrol handling in bulk, is spillage - and that is one of the reasons why fuel containers are not allowed to be filled whilst in vehicles.

The container overflows, the spillage runs inside the vehicle, and the potential of a major fire is immediate, as nothing electrical inside a vehicle is flame-proof.

If the spillage is on the ground, it can be mopped up, spill mats or absorbent clay used - and if a fire is initiated, vehicles can be moved away from the fire.

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by onetrack

[pmccarthy]

Same rule in Vic, containers must be filled on the ground.

Seems there is no easy answer, I am wary of electric pumping. The mechanical pumps might be a problem from my low slung 20 litre containers, I will investigate. Perhaps I need to find or fabricate a funnel that sits neatly in the filler and doesn't tip over, then modify the screw-on spout on the container. Ideally it would have a valve that I could open once everything was in position with the container sitting on the wing.

 

thinking further, a 10 litre can with a valve on the bottom that could be positioned on the wing over the filler would be ideal. Soft feet to prevent scratching the paint.