Filling high-wing tanks

[eightyknots]

Is that a Tuff Jug?

[pmccarthy]

1 hour ago, eightyknots said:

Is that a Tuff Jug?

Yes it is. Looks like a great product if it fits in the hole!

[Hank1959]

On 5/1/2023 at 1:35 PM, pmccarthy said:

This looked like the answer and so I bought one, but the nozzle doesn't fit into the Vixxen or the Foxbat filler. It would, but they have a breather line inside the filler which fouls the nozzle. I tried discharging it manually and got fuel all over the wing as usual! The search continues.

Get the narrow nozzle from MX Store, clip on to your Tuffjug......works a treat on the Vixxen

Tuffjug narrow nozzle.pdf

[skippydiesel]

On 05/01/2023 at 5:11 PM, pmccarthy said:

Yes it is. Looks like a great product if it fits in the hole!

Said the ancestress to the bishop!

[pmccarthy]

Thanks to those who recommended the Tuff Jug. It is easy to use and gives a 10 litre fill with no spills. If the filler hole is smaller than the 35mm spout, then you need the extra adaptor as well. My problem is solved!

[facthunter]

Just for fun look at my post #2. Simple is best.  Nev

[Flightrite]

At $85 bucks I’ll stick to the simplest design known to mankind, jiggle syphon👍 

[Hank1959]

3 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Thanks to those who recommended the Tuff Jug. It is easy to use and gives a 10 litre fill with no spills. If the filler hole is smaller than the 35mm spout, then you need the extra adaptor as well. My problem is solved!

You may find as time goes on that the valve sticks open as you take it away from the tank opening.....fixed with a little silicone spray.

[skippydiesel]

On 21/01/2023 at 5:59 PM, Flightrite said:

At $85 bucks I’ll stick to the simplest design known to mankind, jiggle syphon👍 

Agreed IF you are able to get the supply container higher than the delivery point.

 

I also agree with those who have found hoisting 20 L containers has become a bit of a strain, down sizing to 10L containers (various delivery options) BUT at the end of the day using a relatively light weight, low cost, compact pump, to efficiently deliver fuel to high/low wing tanks, without strain, fear of spillage, must surely be the ultimate goal.

[RFguy]

just a point of order here you must price in the ladder to be apples for apples

 

How do the fill -underside setups work for a 737 ?

[facthunter]

The fuellers do that from their special trucks with overwing top up if you need everything.  The underwing have automatic cut offs. It's about a 3'' hose They can defuel as well and supply a printed document that's very accurate.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

just a point of order here you must price in the ladder to be apples for apples

 

How do the fill -underside setups work for a 737 ?

😀 True! but  then height enhancement devise will be required for most high wing refueling/ fuel remaining check situations. 

 

The challenge in doing away with the ladder or similar, blows my mind - some sort of extended device for removing/refitting the fuel cap, a mirror/camera for seeing where the dip stick needs to inserted and reading of the same..................!

[onetrack]

Refuelling couplers normally operate simply via a spring-loaded valve in the centre of the male coupling fitting (located on the tank). The female pumping equipment coupler clamps over the male coupler via lever couplings (basically, "camlocks") and a metal projection inside pushes the spring loaded valve back off its seat when it's coupled up. Uncoupling allows the spring-loaded valve to reseat again.

 

It appears this basic arrangement is what the B737 uses, although it obviously has safety features designed into it as well. There would be a pressure valve switch arrangement to actuate fuel flow shutoff when the tank reached capacity.

 

http://www.b737.org.uk/refuelpanel.htm

[Blueadventures]

Some images of my setup.

[skippydiesel]

Congratulations Blue - your set up is almost perfect.

 

Uses almost all the same components as mine, with one significant acceptation - mine is designed to be portable ie can be taken on away trips. 

 

[Blueadventures]

1 minute ago, skippydiesel said:

Congratulations Blue - your set up is almost perfect.

 

Uses almost all the same components as mine, with one significant acceptation - mine is designed to be portable ie can be taken on away trips. 

 

Agree portable is handy.  Made mine a few years back when the pressure one I made wasn't up to scratch.  Still need to make a vertical holder for the switch and suits the 20 litre plastic 'Jerry' type containers as the pickup is vertical and straight.  Also runs off the aircraft battery but use the wheeled battery as it's a spare emergency start battery if me or someone needs a jump start.

[rgmwa]

I'm always cautious about electrical terminals, wiring and batteries around fuel. The pumps in the above two examples are directly above the open fuel container outlet where I imagine there would be a fair bit of evaporation going on, especially in hot weather. Do you two aviators see any particular risk with those setups or am I being overly concerned?  

[onetrack]

Fume generation from petrol is the greatest concern. You get fumes from open containers, and from open fuel tanks, and from fuel being splash-filled.

In open areas, the fumes can dissipate rapidly. But when the wind blows the fumes towards any type of spark-making device, you have the chance of ignition.

Always ensure spark-producing devices are at least 20 metres away from any possible fumes, and be aware of the total list of possible ignition sources in the area - and of potential ignition sources being introduced into the refuelling area.

 

Here's a list of potential ignition sources - but it's not all-inclusive, you must be aware of what may be in your specific refuelling area.

 

Naked flames, smoking, pilot lights.
Portable electrical equipment such as tools, radios, and fans.
Fixed electrical systems and powered circuits with potential for arcs, sparks, short circuits.
Hot work activities such as welding, hot-cutting, grinding (can throw hot metal shavings considerable distances).
Operating equipment with combustion engines such as forklift trucks, generators, compressors.
Hot surfaces, exhaust pipes, hot flues and ducts and frictional heating.
Mechanical sparks from impacts, e.g. lawn mower blades striking a rock, forklift tynes on concrete.
Static electricity leading to electrostatic discharges generated incidentally or by processes or activities.

 

The only guaranteed flameproof switches are contained inside sealed boxes, and have seals on the actuating mechanisms.

 

Always have a fire action plan in place before you start any activity that has the potential to produce a fire.

[facthunter]

Good summary..  Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, rgmwa said:

I'm always cautious about electrical terminals, wiring and batteries around fuel. The pumps in the above two examples are directly above the open fuel container outlet where I imagine there would be a fair bit of evaporation going on, especially in hot weather. Do you two aviators see any particular risk with those setups or am I being overly concerned?  

Yes there is an increased risk (ref Onetrack above). 

I, and I think Blue, have come up with a refueling system that is not much more risky than decanting (static spark could still bring you undone). So its up to the individual to assess & manage the risk according to their standards. I would urge all pilots to read & understand Onetrack's list of potential ignition sources and decide for themselves how they will manage the risk they have accepted, so as to minimise the chance of a fuel fire.

 

I have weighed the risk of fire against the increasing risk to my aging back, the chances of spillage with its cariogenic potential, ignition, smell damage to clothing & aircraft surfaces.

 

My fuel pump is designed for petrol transfer in high consumption engines - as such, I hope it is well sealed against fuel/air entry

 

I ;

Have a dedicated earth/ground lead on my pump for connecting to the aircraft.

My fuel containers are in contact with the ground/concrete

Refuel, for preference, in the open air , if not, with hanger doors wide open

Make all my electrical connections before opening fuel container/tanks (I use Anderson plug connectors)

Have my delivery nozzle well down in the filter funnel (rich air fuel mixture)

Hold my on/off switch in the hand away from the fuel delivery

The switch itself is well insulated/covered, minimising potential fuel vapour entry

I have used figure 8 cable for my pump electrical system but on recommendation from RFGuy will change to two core double insulated

My electrical system has an in line fuse that I hope will shut the electrical supply down in the event of a short.

[petercoota]

Have a look at this; https://flofast.com.au/shop-systems.html

 

The pump is very high capacity & is reversible, so you can pump out & in.

 

I've had a system for a couple of years, works well.

 

The people at Flowfast are also great to deal with.

 

Expensive but a really easy solution for an ageing aviator.

[skippydiesel]

Looks great Peter -

Certainly has one strong advantage over an electric pump and that is of course the fear of spark ignition.

The container & trolley are a good idea for transporting fuel from ground vehicle to aircraft - save whats left of the back

 

I suspect the the disadvantages are;

The cost is very high, compared with my 12V pump system

Not very portable - pump itself may, come apart and  be transportable in the luggage compartment but the container & trolley not so good

May be pretty cumbersome, when trying to pump out of a collapsible fuel bladder

Cant be "easier" than plugging in a 12V system &  switching on the pump.

How do you "monitor" the filling of high wing tanks?

 

[petercoota]

The setup is only suitable for your home hangar, not transportable in an LSA. It would only work with the containers in the system, certainly not collapsible bladders.

 

I have two 25 litre containers, part of the system, that I take to the airport on my ute. I fill from the back of the ute, so I can observe while pumping.

 

[Carbon Canary]

This rotary hand pump appears small and light enough, and can be dismantled to shove in the back of an aircraft......and isn't electric.

 

I have no idea how satisfactory it is at pumping petrol, but for ~$9 + freight, it's probably worth a punt.  Of course, pumping from collapsible jerry cans may still present a problem, but at least you could do it from the ground.

 

Motorcycle Hand Rotary Oil Pump Manual Hand Crank Rotary Pump Oil Fuel Transfer For Car Auto Truck Trailer Rv Boat Marin - Fuel Pumps - AliExpress

[onetrack]

At $9, that el-cheapo plastic pump will more than likely fall apart before you even get the tank full - that's if the "generous" clearances inside the pump mechanism actually pump any amount of petrol.