Filling high-wing tanks

[Carbon Canary]

It’s aluminium

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, Carbon Canary said:

This rotary hand pump appears small and light enough, and can be dismantled to shove in the back of an aircraft......and isn't electric.

 

I have no idea how satisfactory it is at pumping petrol, but for ~$9 + freight, it's probably worth a punt.  Of course, pumping from collapsible jerry cans may still present a problem, but at least you could do it from the ground.

 

Motorcycle Hand Rotary Oil Pump Manual Hand Crank Rotary Pump Oil Fuel Transfer For Car Auto Truck Trailer Rv Boat Marin - Fuel Pumps - AliExpress

According to spec's - aluminium

 

"Flow Rate: 2000L/h"   / 33L/Min - really?

[Carbon Canary]

 

13 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

According to spec's - aluminium

 

"Flow Rate: 2000L/h"   / 33L/Min - really?

If you’re a Sydney to Hobart yacht grinder ??

[dan tonner]

     This is what I have been using - along with 10 liter plastic fuel cans and a Mr. Funnel. I have a sheet of bubble wrap that I set on the wing longeron next to the filler, set the plastic jug on it, slip in the pump and operate the switch with one hand and steady the funnel with the other.   I changed the two "D" cell batteries after three years.

     The hose from the pump appears flimsy but has proven itself over the six years I have used it. The cost: $15.00 plus tax.  I purchased two in 2016 because they looked a little cheaply made. The second one is still in the box and has never been used.

      Canadian Tire store as well as at other outlets -(Princess Auto and Home Hardware)

NOTE:  not all versions of this type of pumpare approved for gasoline.

 

CanadaDan

fuel pump.docx

[skippydiesel]

No offence intended Dan but you might just as well use a "jiggle" siphon (no batteries).

 

Siphon's, of all descriptions, do not get the fuel from the ground into, either low or high, wing tanks At best, all they do is reduce the pouring effort & the potential for spillage.

 

There is only one solution to avoiding having to lift fuel containers and that is a powered (can be hand or 12+ volt) refueling system (battery powered siphon's do not qualify).

 

There are more options with Home/Base systems as weight & power options are less of a consideration.

 

If the pilot wants to have a portable system, it would seem 12V is probably the only solution  and there are few, to nil, commercially available options in this category - you may have to build your own (see earlier commentary).

[Garfly]

But I think Dan's point is that 10 litre cans are liftable and a battery powered siphon frees your hands to steady the filter and aim the hose with due care. That solves most of the problems with minimal expense, spillage, weight and general complication.

And it can be used at home or away.

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Garfly

[Bruce Tuncks]

They called it a "pump-syphon" which means to me that you can use it as a pump and lift fuel up higher than it started. If this is so, it looks good.

[Garfly]

 

They're definitely called pumps on the easyflo site, and, as such, they do lift - but not all the way up to a high-wing's filler cap from the ground.  I think the length of the supplied hose is about the limit.  I haven't tried but I suppose they'd work well with portable fuel bladders. In that case, I think I'd go for the clip on hose (as in the car pic below) rather than the Servo style handle because then you'd have two hands free to wrangle the (unstable) bag and the inserted suction hose.

 

https://easyflo.com.au/

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Garfly

[onetrack]

I think most purchasers wouldn't be impressed with those battery-powered pumps - simply because their flow output is painful.

The quoted flow rate is with the outlet level with the top of the fuel in the container. As soon as you raise the end of the hose, the flow rate falls off to a trickle, and it takes many minutes to empty a 20L container.

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Garfly said:

But I think Dan's point is that 10 litre cans are liftable and a battery powered siphon frees your hands to steady the filter and aim the hose with due care. That solves most of the problems with minimal expense, spillage, weight and general complication.

And it can be used at home or away.

 

True! BUT the additional cost of purchasing & operating a devise which gives little benefit above a "jiggle" siphon is , in my mind, unwarranted AND does not remove the need to have the supply container above the discharge point/ receiving container (tank). It is possible that the, slightly enhanced, powered siphon may be capable of delivering fuel, when the supply is at the same level as the discharge point, however this is likely to bean underwhelming flow rate

 

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

They called it a "pump-syphon" which means to me that you can use it as a pump and lift fuel up higher than it started. If this is so, it looks good.

It seems to me that the word "pump" in relation to this devise, is a stretching the understanding of what most people would assume a pump can deliver in the way of flow & particularly "head" ie meaningful flow above the level of supply & pump location.

These devises (there are many on the web) are for the most part unable to lift a meaningful quantity of fuel more than a few "inches" above the pump/supply level - they are powered siphons. Powered siphons use a small pump (usually centrifugal) to prime the siphon - priming can also be done using a "jiggler" (no batteries) or even an intermittent finger over the end of the hose - I do not recommend the mouth suck procedure , which also works well, but may cause fuel burns to mouth, throat, face, eyes (not pleasant). 

If a powered siphon delivers what you want - all power to you but don't expect it to transfer fuel from ground level, to a point above the siphon "head"

[Garfly]

17 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I think most purchasers wouldn't be impressed with those battery-powered pumps - simply because their flow output is painful.

The quoted flow rate is with the outlet level with the top of the fuel in the container. As soon as you raise the end of the hose, the flow rate falls off to a trickle, and it takes many minutes to empty a 20L container.

 

Yeah, fair enough, but even with similar 'head' requirements to a siphon system you're still ahead by having that extra free hand. However, if you don't need to wrangle a filter funnel and/or struggle with an unstable fuel container then that advantage is less and a jiggler can often do as well.

  

Still, accepting a slower flow might be a better deal than the scenario outlined by pmc in his OP:

 

"I just had another disaster, fuel all over the wing and over me. Does anyone have suggestions for filling high-wing tanks? I transfer fuel to a 10-litre red plastic can, standing on a good platform, but getting it into the tank is the problem.  Have tried several funnels but they all fall over at some stage. My small Mr Funnel is the worst. Have tried with and without the funnel that screws into the can. I have never had a problem filling low-wing aircraft."

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

True! BUT the additional cost of purchasing & operating a devise which gives little benefit above a "jiggle" siphon is , in my mind, unwarranted

Hmmm ... in Dan's case that cost was $15 plus tax for a device that's given him trouble free service for 7 years and counting. 

Even if you do have the savvy to roll your own, I doubt you could build any system so cheap and reliable (even for $80).

In some peoples' thinking, the cost of replacing a windscreen due to a single little fuelling 'incident' might carry more weight than with others.

Some may worry more about the relative spark-safety of whatever system they choose to make or buy.

So 'price' comes down to very personal cost/risk/benefit calculations. In any case, fuelling-up remains a dirty, dangerous part of our activities which could probably do with some improvement.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Garfly

[spacesailor]

Whatever happened to the '' bicycle pump '' pneumatic fuel pump for 20 litre '' jerry cans'' .

 

were did they go to rest !. LoL

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Whatever happened to the '' bicycle pump '' pneumatic fuel pump for 20 litre '' jerry cans'' .

 

were did they go to rest !. LoL

spacesailor

I think you must be referring to a (earlier?) version of what is now called the "Tanami"  refueling system - this is where an air pump/compressor is used to pressurise your, airtight,  fuel container so that the fuel will be forced upwards, from the container, into the fuel tank. Works well for 4X4 aficionados, who often have a small compressor installed on /in the (usually diesel) vehicle. Not sure it would be so applicable to aircraft & petrol.

 

I did try a version of this, using a fuel bladder and standing on it  - sort of worked  ie produced a dribble. Either its a non starter or I need to put on many KG's for it to be a viable refueling system.

Edited February 12, 2023 by skippydiesel

[Carbon Canary]

3 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Whatever happened to the '' bicycle pump '' pneumatic fuel pump for 20 litre '' jerry cans'' .

 

were did they go to rest !. LoL

spacesailor

Like that ?

[spacesailor]

Sounds very like .

P T connector : connect PT 2 to sodium solution bag : place bag-on-chair & sit-on-it ,

To empty stomach , connect PT 2 , to empty bag : place bag on-floor, & standup .

spacesailor

[Carbon Canary]

Have we just gone from fueling aeroplanes to proctology ??

 

[spacesailor]

WELL ! .

I couldn't find this forum earlier , & I put a link to an ' electric fuel-pump ' on the wrong site . ( different site ) .

But was told it was Diesel only .

I think I was taking the urine out to ' pasture . in my previous post , & that ' PT 2 connector , could be a safety connector for more than P taking . very interesting subject . ' Peritoneal Dialysis '

spacesailor

Edited February 14, 2023 by spacesailor

[trailer]

Here's one to take for interest sake (definitely not a recommendation and bound to be controversial) on a trip last year through Victoria I spotted this set up. Uses a $95 ebay diesel/kerosene pump that was being regularly used solely for 98 and avgas in a Cessna. Mounted on an old shopping trolly his jerry cans either in the trolly or ute and Anderson plug on the aircraft to power the 12v pump. Apparently 20l empties in 30 secs, no leaks and works well. Pump, hoses and auto nozzle part of the package. 

[Carbon Canary]

The red and black clips off the pump look like alligator clips……not an Anderson plug ??

[skippydiesel]

16 hours ago, trailer said:

Here's one to take for interest sake (definitely not a recommendation and bound to be controversial) on a trip last year through Victoria I spotted this set up. Uses a $95 ebay diesel/kerosene pump that was being regularly used solely for 98 and avgas in a Cessna. Mounted on an old shopping trolly his jerry cans either in the trolly or ute and Anderson plug on the aircraft to power the 12v pump. Apparently 20l empties in 30 secs, no leaks and works well. Pump, hoses and auto nozzle part of the package. 

Great ! If it can sustainably pump petrol. My concern would be the seals may deteriorate, over time,  when exposed to petrol.

 

When I did my research into small 12V fuel transfer pumps,there were a host of diesel/kerosene types and almost none that were claimed to be suitable for petrol.

[Carbon Canary]

I wonder if the pumps listed for diesel/kerosene meet the intrinsically safe requirements versus those listed for petrol ? 

The 12V pumps advertised for petrol seem to be almost twice the price for an equivalent 12V pump listed for diesel. 

Diesel is regarded as combustible rather than flammable.  (Flash point above ~60C.)

 

Also, is this one powered through an Anderson plug ? The photo looks very much like alligator clips.

[trailer]

8 hours ago, Carbon Canary said:

I wonder if the pumps listed for diesel/kerosene meet the intrinsically safe requirements versus those listed for petrol ? 

The 12V pumps advertised for petrol seem to be almost twice the price for an equivalent 12V pump listed for diesel. 

Diesel is regarded as combustible rather than flammable.  (Flash point above ~60C.)

 

Also, is this one powered through an Anderson plug ? The photo looks very much like alligator clips.

Can guarantee it's not certified, they are all over ebay etc. There are not many promoted for petrol and those that have the 60l min capacity range are $400 plus. Old mate had another chord which attached to the alligator clips to an anderson plug. Mostly he uses a small battery which sits in the box on the trolly using the alligator clips seen in the picture.

[trailer]

Here is my preferred way to remove fuel from wing tanks if I am not/havent using/used the aircraft for a few weeks. Simple.