Taking ASIC too far?

[jackc]

Well it’s simple…..WANT the card?  NEED the card? Just suck it up and get it……many things in Aviation are a crock, just add ASIC Card to the pile 🙂  

[facthunter]

Just imagine for a moment how good aviation could be if you got the BS out of it... I'd rather they took guns and knives off people in the street The asic is not based on rational assessment of effectiveness.. The RAAus one was an "Access ALL Areas " cover but I don't think it counts for points towards a Passport' ?? These things should operate under a "Sunset Claus" and reviewed and JUSTIFIED to be reinstated.. Nev

[old man emu]

find out who owns the mobs that are issuing the cards and I bet there is a trail back to one side of the House.

[Ironpot]

On 31/12/2022 at 9:59 AM, Kununurra said:

A quick check of ERSA indicates Archerfield does fall within this category of requiring the ASIC.

 

 

 

Yes, thankyou for that - it proves my point because for many years I’m been in & out of Archerfield 3 or 4 times a month and never had to display an ASIC.

 

In reality ASIC requirements don’t impact the vast majority of RAA pilots - if any? However, I'm sure we all agree that, as pilots, all know just how easy it would be for some crazy to fly 1000 litres of Avgas into the main stand of the MCG on a match day. So, in reality, we all understand why some form of background checks for pilots are just common sense. The arguments against them are puerile.

 

But honestly, if an ASIC is an issue for you and is preventing you from flying then you need to get another hobby - life is too short.

[facthunter]

Most of our GA and U/L's would carry about 120 litres MAX and we all have our right to our own opinion on this. I think it's a crock. and can't be justified on cost and inconvenience for an imaginary scenario where any big van could carry enough to blow 1/2 a block to smitherines. If it was being introduced NOW it wouldn't get past first base. .  It's a reaction to 4 airlners full of fuel, attacking places in USA that was well planned and involved a LOT of fuel at high velocity.   Nev

[Thruster88]

If only they had kept the cockpit doors locked before 911. 

[onetrack]

I don't think anyone would disagree with a background/character check for anyone wishing to pilot an aircraft. But the problem is, the ASIC card has turned into a profitable bureaucratic industry - a veritable feeding trough for multiple snouts, and even corporate snouts.

 

The entire system is long overdue for a serious examination of its effectiveness, its methods, and the level of additional major cost burden, on people who are already wearing the "true cost" of operating in the recreational aviation industry.

 

Bureaucracy never shrinks, it has no controls placed on it to limit its growth, and it is a sacred cow that must never be touched, according to Govt. Just as we have regular revisions of no-longer-necessary laws, and their associated necessary repeals, so we need to have regular examinations of the value and community cost of unnecessary bureaucracy, and no-longer-necessary rules and regulations.

[turboplanner]

9 hours ago, facthunter said:

 It's a reaction to 4 airlners full of fuel, attacking places in USA that was well planned and involved a LOT of fuel at high velocity.   

No, it wasn't actually. It was based on some light aircraft incidents where people were inadvertently trained for their missions. I'm not going to publicly give any information on it, other than to suggest that people stop adding two and two to suit their beliefs, stop whining, and get on with flying with an ASIC where it's specified.

[aro]

If you were organizing one of those missions, it would be very useful to know which of your members was under suspicion. What better way than to have them apply for an ASIC, and anyone who is denied would not be allowed to be in contact with other members?

 

Of course, the authorities are not stupid so they would be very aware of this. The irony is that they are unlikely to deny an ASIC, to avoid tipping people off. Much better to just let the ASIC go through and monitor student pilot applications etc - which I am sure they do.

 

13 hours ago, Ironpot said:

all know just how easy it would be for some crazy to fly 1000 litres of Avgas into the main stand of the MCG on a match day

How does an ASIC actually stop that from happening? There are hundreds of airfields without security, you can learn to fly overseas etc. The reality is for anything smaller than passenger jets it is much easier and more effective to go to Budget and rent a truck.

[skippydiesel]

On 31/12/2022 at 5:37 PM, jackc said:

Well it’s simple…..WANT the card?  NEED the card? Just suck it up and get it……many things in Aviation are a crock, just add ASIC Card to the pile 🙂  

Mutton!

[skippydiesel]

ASIC is but a symptom.

 

Two truism's:

• Democracy is a fragile.
• The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing

Those that advocate (no doubt all good men). just rolling over and accepting ASIC, as another minor inconvenience, don't understand just how fragile our democratic system is. Australians are famous for ignoring unworkable/illogical/petty rules but I suggest this blase attitude is very wrong, as it allows our rulers to enact bad legislation (such as ASIC) that just sits there, festering away, waiting for some poor innocent sod to have the book thrown at them. 

 

Any law that is current (ie not rescinded) can be used against you. If charged, at the very least will be inconvenient, may involve considerable cost and if found guilty, by an unsympathetic judge, may see you loose your license/certificate/ ability to travel overseas/ liberty (what are the penalties for ASIC non compliance?). 

 

If we do live in/under a truly democratic system, I would suggest that all laws pass the following simple test;

• Protect the majority from the minority.
• Protect the minority from the majority.

(ASIC fails to address both)

 

Simplistic? Yes and will not quite cover every potential scenario, that the Gov must address BUT where this test can not used, extraordinary rigour must be applied to all aspect of the legislation BEFOR it is passed (no knee jerk populist crap) All such legislation must have a "sunset" clause requiring comprehensive review before reinstating. 

 

ASIC (& its like) are an affront to every private (small aircraft) pilots democratic rights. Its a cost we (& the public) should not have to bear. If you think the cost minor (pilot application fees), you forget all the RPT airfield owners being forced to install (often totally ineffective) security systems the cost of which will inevitably be passed on to the public (flying or not).

 

ASIC  (as applied to private pilots using minor airfields) is just indefensible/stupid, has no sunset clause and because the private flying community has little if any political leverage, likely to continue on indefinitely. In saying this I do not for one moment suggest we should accept or not take every opportunity to appose this bad legislation.

[jackc]

Skippy, I am a good man….WHAT do you want me to do? 

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

ASIC is but a symptom.

 

Two truism's:

• Democracy is a fragile.
• The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing

Those that advocate (no doubt all good men). just rolling over and accepting ASIC, as another minor inconvenience, don't understand just how fragile our democratic system is. Australians are famous for ignoring unworkable/illogical/petty rules but I suggest this blase attitude is very wrong, as it allows our rulers to enact bad legislation (such as ASIC) that just sits there, festering away, waiting for some poor innocent sod to have the book thrown at them. 

 

Any law that is current (ie not rescinded) can be used against you. If charged, at the very least will be inconvenient, may involve considerable cost and if found guilty, by an unsympathetic judge, may see you loose your license/certificate/ ability to travel overseas/ liberty (what are the penalties for ASIC non compliance?). 

 

If we do live in/under a truly democratic system, I would suggest that all laws pass the following simple test;

• Protect the majority from the minority.
• Protect the minority from the majority.

(ASIC fails to address both)

 

Simplistic? Yes and will not quite cover every potential scenario, that the Gov must address BUT where this test can not used, extraordinary rigour must be applied to all aspect of the legislation BEFOR it is passed (no knee jerk populist crap) All such legislation must have a "sunset" clause requiring comprehensive review before reinstating. 

 

ASIC (& its like) are an affront to every private (small aircraft) pilots democratic rights. Its a cost we (& the public) should not have to bear. If you think the cost minor (pilot application fees), you forget all the RPT airfield owners being forced to install (often totally ineffective) security systems the cost of which will inevitably be passed on to the public (flying or not).

 

ASIC  (as applied to private pilots using minor airfields) is just indefensible/stupid, has no sunset clause and because the private flying community has little if any political leverage, likely to continue on indefinitely. In saying this I do not for one moment suggest we should accept or not take every opportunity to appose this bad legislation.

You're not related to Neville Chamberlain are you Skippy?

 

[facthunter]

Let's just say he was for the sake of a proposition. WHAT possible connection could it have to this topic.?   Nev

[skippydiesel]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

Skippy, I am a good man….WHAT do you want me to do? 

Raise your voice at every opportunity -  If you actually believe you live in a democracy - its your right & duty. 

 

As an individual you may as well shout into the wind (deliberate mix quote). As a group we may have some impact. As members of an organisation (RAA's) we might just elicited a more proactive stance (I live in hope - such is the burden for the incurable optimist) )

[skippydiesel]

10 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

You're not related to Neville Chamberlain are you Skippy?

 

Was Chamberlain not the advocate of Nazi appeasement ? possibly a good man )

Edited January 2, 2023 by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall enter god's kingdom.. On that basis It's not going to be crowded.  Nev

[Ironpot]

Ah, I am starting to suspect that somebody may have been knocked back for one here?

 

Look it may have escaped your notice but nothing is for free anymore and it seems that every facet of human existence has to be licensed in this 21st century. Unfortunately if you deal with anything considered hazardous a clearance can be a hit to your bank balance. Even a “blue card “ costs $100 in Queensland. Dealing with fuel, blasting, tow-trucks etc etc all require some sort of security clearance.  Maybe even farming - I don’t know? It has nothing to do with democracy but I agree it is regulation.

 

Personally, I feel that a the current charge for an ASIC renewal is too high. However if you compare it other security clearances it’s actually in-line, maybe cheap! The cost equates to about 1/2 hr in your beloved bird.

 

I’m not trying to promote ASICs - I just feel that there is too much undue negativity around them from “liberty” merchants which just helps to drive potential new pilots (event organisers) away. It gives the impression that we are over-regulated and that it's another barrier to entry. We don't need more poor PR.

 

So if you don’t need an ASIC, and the vast majority of RAA pilots will never need one -  NO COST IMPLICATION.

 

I just don't follow the argument where airfield owners have any increased costs.

 

It’s not a problem and to conflate it as a democratic issue is just daft!

[FlyBoy1960]

farming needs to be regulated with the salmonella poisoning in baby spinach. It is obvious that if they had a FSIC ( Farmers Security identification card) then there would have been no poisoning of the baby spinach just before Christmas and also now baby cucumbers. We need to lobby the government to roll out a FSIC card which of course must be renewed every 2 years !   

 

Also, let's make sure they fence off their fields so nobody can get in under the cover of darkness

[facthunter]

 Ironpot, Add "In My Opinion" because that's ALL it is.  If you pushed for it to be changed, they'd say why have you been quiet for so long if it was important. Malintent people ARE ALWAYS DREDGING OUT OLD LAWS TO PERSECUTE PEOPLE WITH. ALL should have a sunset clause and be continually JUSTIFIED to continue being valid.  Nev

Edited January 2, 2023 by facthunter

[skippydiesel]

Ironpot,

 

You did not address your comment(s) to me however I assume that they were so directed.

 

I, like many pilots,  influenced by the prevailing propaganda at the time, applied for ASIC when it first came out . Received my ASIC (& renewed 2 years later).  I now consider my action to be as hasty/foolish as the Governments. In all the time I held my ASIC, not once was I asked for it (a very common story) nor did I see any practical enhancement to security at airfields (the fences/gates are not an effective barrier to those bent on criminal acts). Small airfield are pretty much as secure today, as they were before ASIC came into effect.

 

Flying is costly, the financial cost of the ASIC, is, in the scheme of things ,almost nothing. That a human Government caught up in the moment, made an error is understandable. That subsequent Government(s) of the day, have not rescinded this (& other bad laws) is unforgivable.

 

We (the public) have never received "free" services from our Government/bureaucracy. ALL services are payed for directly/indirectly and always have been. ALL costs are passed on to the proletariat sooner or later. To think otherwise is naive. The requirement that airfield owners must comply, with ASIC, assonated security upgrades,  has a financial cost (on going). To imagine that these costs will not be on passed on to the public (& pilots) where ever possible is also naive.

 

"Dealing with fuel, blasting, tow-trucks etc etc all require some sort of security clearance Yeh! So? People handling dangerous goods/engaged in dangerous services  (do tow truck drivers really need a security pass?) must be trained in minimising the risks to the public/infrastructure. You & I as pilots have also been trained in minimising risk,  in our field and we do a BFR to keep us up to speed. Due to crimes against our children, people working with them, require security screening - great! BUT how many private pilots have actually taken their sport aircraft and done harm to the people? Commercial pilots are something else - its rare but it does happen, that a suicidal pilots takes a plane load of people with them.  How does ASIC and a few chain link fences actually prevent the mentally disturbed/politically motivated (same thing?) committing a crime, especially when its  not policed in any meaningful way?

 

All laws have an impact on our freedom/democracy -  in a complex society there must be some restrictions to antisocial behaviours. This is called compromise BUT laws that are ineffectual, not based on factual research (logic), etc are just bad and should not be tolerated, even it only effects a few privileged person (pilot)s. 

 

All of us (not just pilots) should be alert to any diminution of our democratic system (good men..........)

Edited January 2, 2023 by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

Some GA and many U/L's are not too fussy what and where they can take off from, but the real fact of not being able to lift much is significant in the discussion. . Once something like these laws has been introduced people are scared of what will happen  and how they will be blamed  so they don't want to stick their neck out.   Nev

Edited January 2, 2023 by facthunter

[kgwilson]

So what additional information is required for an ASIC card that isn't required for a drivers licence? A drivers licence is used as ID for multiple government, banking and other organisations systems plus a few other things to make up 100 points.

 

They want to know your addresses for the last 10 years & you have to provide other IDs and proof like medicare card, photo id like drivers licence/passport, rates or utilities account etc. 

 

 So your drivers licence and CASA licences or RAA membership card covers all that and you already have it so an ASIC is no better form of ID that what you already have. It is just a stupid, expensive bit of red plastic with your mug shot on it that you hang round your neck that some think makes you look important.

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, Ironpot said:

I am starting to suspect that somebody may have been knocked back for one here?

No. I started the thread to find out if volunteers helping to run a flying event needed an ASIC card because they would be working airside. As usual, and it is the nature of the beast, the initial enquiry has been answered, but respondents have moved off on another track. That's the beauty of this informal site. Doesn't worry me that it has happened. In fact I'm probably one of the leading signpost twisters.

 

Now back to following red herrings.

 

Cost of ASIC card is $110 for the Auscheck security check and the card must be renewed every two years. I have a Working With Children approval. That lasts five years and cost me $80 in 2019.  I'm sure that any of the specific offences that lead to the refusal of a WWC approval would jump out during the basic criminal history check. Offences that would lead to the refusal of an ASIC card would also jump out. So why does an ASIC card run out at $275 for five years while the WWC is only $80? The answer is simple - The government has outsourced the work and everyone knows that when government work is outsourced, the cost doubles or trebles. Smaller Government payroll = Greater taxpayer expenditure.

 

Why is there a need for the stringent checking for the ASIC card twenty or more years since the need for greater security arose? As Facthunter said:

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

ALL should have a sunset clause and be continually JUSTIFIED to continue being valid.

A sunset clause might not be the best thing, however continual review is essential. That review can answer the question, "Is this rule still justifiable? - Yes/No) As an example of laws gathering dust without review, around 1912 each State of the Commonwealth passed an Act to prohibit the manufacture, sale and use of white phosphorus. That Act was the "White Phosphorus Prohibition Act". It remained on the books until repealed in 2013. The Act itself was repealed, but white phosphorus is dealt with in other Acts.

[jackc]

5 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Raise your voice at every opportunity -  If you actually believe you live in a democracy - its your right & duty. 

 

As an individual you may as well shout into the wind (deliberate mix quote). As a group we may have some impact. As members of an organisation (RAA's) we might just elicited a more proactive stance (I live in hope - such is the burden for the incurable optimist) )

Skippy,  Try peeing upwind in a Cyclone?  All that will happen is you will get wet?  WHY pick a War that is not winnable.?  Find a way around the problem you want to fix.  Don’t like ASIC cards?  I don’t like the idea of them either. Quite simple, I won’t fly where one is needed so problem is solved for me.  

In the future flying may involve the use of clandestine airstrips as  ASICS may be needed to land at ALL documented airstrips, nothing would surprise me, the way the World is going.  The total worst of it all could be, you hold a pilots certificate or licence, it will be mandatory to have an ASIC Card?  So what then?  Fly with NO licence and NO ASIC Card, NO Rego number displayed?  Own you own airstrip? Be the best thing you could do.

Everyone here knows the suggestive answers I could make 🙂 

Edited January 2, 2023 by jackc
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