Jab down in Wentworth 2 Jan 23.

[facthunter]

OK I can accept that. Un fortunately I can't change what I just put there but WE come up with these all knowing suggestions from the comfort of our chairs without knowing what really happened.  I've represented pilots accused of errors or misdemeanours many times over the years and their OWN kind are always the quickest to condemn. It's an aspect of Pilots I don't understand and don't like.  Nev

[turboplanner]

8 minutes ago, jackc said:

Could it be that the Jabiru suffered a lot of sink just after take off by flying over water/swamp? 

Could be, what actually happened hasn't come in yet; we just see the end result, which in my opinion was a success. Really like to see tham alive and uninjured, don't care if the aircraft is bits as small as confetti around them. Same result for the 182 at Porepunkah.

Reversing backwards to the take off point is not always easy to call if the pilot doesn't give an explanation or there are no witnesses. I mentioned before, this is a good case for RAA to do some interviewing and write up a report in Accidents and Incidents. We don't need to know it was a valve in cylinder 2, just what happened and what the pilot did that made it a safe landing.

[Jim188]

Hi All, 

 

I read with interest all this banter about Jabiru engine and their reliability issues. I think we all know Jabiru has had some engines issues and that's why if you own a Gen 1, 2 or 3 you should know about the different up grades that Jabiru has brought forward for these engines.  But does every Jabiru engine owner do those up grades, I don't think so ??????? 

 

I find it interesting on this forum, does anyone every ask when a Jabiru engine failures, has the engine owner done all the appropriate engine up grade or maintenance as directed by Jabiru, e.g. replacing single value springs with double springs or replacing pistons with recess piston crowns. What about pilots that don't really don't understand the importance of doing a cruise climb with a Jabiru Gen 1, 2 or 3 engine and that owner is always having compression, head bolt or torque issues and it's never their own fault.      

 

Maybe before we jump straight into blaming Jabiru for every engine malfunction or fault, we should understand there is at least 4 possible factors that can contribute to an engine malfunction or failure.

1. The Pilot
2. The Owner or Maintainer  
3. Parts (or the person who approved the substitute parts) 
4. The Manufacturer. 

I heard a Jabiru crankshaft that failed, the owner was sure it was Jabiru's fault. What most people never got to hear, is that engine had a bad prop strike a year or so before and the owner never bulk stripped the engine, did I hear someone ask, what's a bulk strip?

 

Or what about the Jabiru engine that failure where the owner never did the double value spring upgrade in a timely manner. Then one day, smashed a valve into the top of a piston and then blamed Jabiru for having such a shit engine, because the owner never did the valve up grade as told.  

 

I am guessing some on this forum are not even members of RAAus, but in their Magazine issue 103, page 95, for the first half of 2022, there was 16 engine malfunctions or failures. 9 were Rotax and 7 were Jabiru, oh boy, and for all this time I have been hood winked by all those Rotax flying pilots telling us their engines just never, never, never, never ever fail and now that just seems to be one big porky. 😃😂      

 

Jim188

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Jim188 said:

Hi All, 

 

I read with interest all this banter about Jabiru engine and their reliability issues. I think we all know Jabiru has had some engines issues and that's why if you own a Gen 1, 2 or 3 you should know about the different up grades that Jabiru has brought forward for these engines.  But does every Jabiru engine owner do those up grades, I don't think so ??????? 

 

I find it interesting on this forum, does anyone every ask when a Jabiru engine failures, has the engine owner done all the appropriate engine up grade or maintenance as directed by Jabiru, e.g. replacing single value springs with double springs or replacing pistons with recess piston crowns. What about pilots that don't really don't understand the importance of doing a cruise climb with a Jabiru Gen 1, 2 or 3 engine and that owner is always having compression, head bolt or torque issues and it's never their own fault.      

 

Maybe before we jump straight into blaming Jabiru for every engine malfunction or fault, we should understand there is at least 4 possible factors that can contribute to an engine malfunction or failure.

1. The Pilot
2. The Owner or Maintainer  
3. Parts (or the person who approved the substitute parts) 
4. The Manufacturer. 

I heard a Jabiru crankshaft that failed, the owner was sure it was Jabiru's fault. What most people never got to hear, is that engine had a bad prop strike a year or so before and the owner never bulk stripped the engine, did I hear someone ask, what's a bulk strip?

 

Or what about the Jabiru engine that failure where the owner never did the double value spring upgrade in a timely manner. Then one day, smashed a valve into the top of a piston and then blamed Jabiru for having such a shit engine, because the owner never did the valve up grade as told.  

 

I am guessing some on this forum are not even members of RAAus, but in their Magazine issue 103, page 95, for the first half of 2022, there was 16 engine malfunctions or failures. 9 were Rotax and 7 were Jabiru, oh boy, and for all this time I have been hood winked by all those Rotax flying pilots telling us their engines just never, never, never, never ever fail and now that just seems to be one big porky. 😃😂      

 

Jim188

A couple of things here:

 

1. As far as I'm aware, which is just from the public information so far, it hasn't been confirmed that an engine failure occurred, so it's a little early for anyone pro or con to be opening up. If the engine did quit, its also a little early to descend on any mechanical failures if the report of the aircraft only being used twice in the last year, so it's also a little too soon to be defending  the engine against an array of past issues. We always discuss possibilities, because ofte the owner and RAA don't move forward confirm what happened and issue a warning for other owners to do X, which would save a lot of speculation time.

 

2. In reference to your post; all good valuable information. I would only pick on two things

    (a) 16 issues in 1 magazine is too narrow a sample when we have nearly ten years of data.

    (b) Any engine vs engine report should be like for like before you post the numbers. In Jab's case it's very important to log which were before Gen 4 and Gen 4 so we know if there's an ongoing problem or if owners should have replaced the older engines by now and with Rotax how many were four cylinder and how many were small engines, because its normal for all smaller engines to have a much higher attrition rate.

[Roscoe]

3 hours ago, Jim188 said:

Hi All, 

 

I read with interest all this banter about Jabiru engine and their reliability issues. I think we all know Jabiru has had some engines issues and that's why if you own a Gen 1, 2 or 3 you should know about the different up grades that Jabiru has brought forward for these engines.  But does every Jabiru engine owner do those up grades, I don't think so ??????? 

 

I find it interesting on this forum, does anyone every ask when a Jabiru engine failures, has the engine owner done all the appropriate engine up grade or maintenance as directed by Jabiru, e.g. replacing single value springs with double springs or replacing pistons with recess piston crowns. What about pilots that don't really don't understand the importance of doing a cruise climb with a Jabiru Gen 1, 2 or 3 engine and that owner is always having compression, head bolt or torque issues and it's never their own fault.      

 

Maybe before we jump straight into blaming Jabiru for every engine malfunction or fault, we should understand there is at least 4 possible factors that can contribute to an engine malfunction or failure.

1. The Pilot
2. The Owner or Maintainer  
3. Parts (or the person who approved the substitute parts) 
4. The Manufacturer. 

I heard a Jabiru crankshaft that failed, the owner was sure it was Jabiru's fault. What most people never got to hear, is that engine had a bad prop strike a year or so before and the owner never bulk stripped the engine, did I hear someone ask, what's a bulk strip?

 

Or what about the Jabiru engine that failure where the owner never did the double value spring upgrade in a timely manner. Then one day, smashed a valve into the top of a piston and then blamed Jabiru for having such a shit engine, because the owner never did the valve up grade as told.  

 

I am guessing some on this forum are not even members of RAAus, but in their Magazine issue 103, page 95, for the first half of 2022, there was 16 engine malfunctions or failures. 9 were Rotax and 7 were Jabiru, oh boy, and for all this time I have been hood winked by all those Rotax flying pilots telling us their engines just never, never, never, never ever fail and now that just seems to be one big porky. 😃😂      

 

Jim188

Thanks Jim, that about sums it up.

I appreciate you taking the time to make a considered, accurate truthful summary.

FLIGHTRITE, what is the significance of the funny faces you post after many of the postings, including this one?

[Bruce Tuncks]

peter081, do you have info about the plane? I assure you that I am not a journalist and I am puzzled why anybody would think so.

I'm just a retiree who lives on a farm in the west wimmera and flies Jabirus for fun. I have been doing so for more than 20 years now and never had a problem in the air.

[facthunter]

We RELY on the moderators and they are hard to buy off.  Talk about principalled. PAL doesn't count. Nev

[Admin]

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[FlyBoy1960]

13 hours ago, Jim188 said:

9 were Rotax and 7 were Jabiru, oh boy, and for all this time I have been hood winked by all those Rotax flying pilots telling us their engines just never, never, never, never ever fail and now that just seems to be one big porky. 😃😂      

 

Jim188

this is probably representative of the numbers but there are 10 times more Rotax flying then Jabiru's then it is no use in waving your flag.    Remember Rotax failures include 2-stroke as well normally although their numbers are in decline.

[coljones]

1 minute ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

this is probably representative of the numbers but there are 10 times more Rotax flying then Jabiru's then it is no use in waving your flag.    Remember Rotax failures include 2-stroke as well normally although their numbers are in decline.

Maybe 10 times more globally but not in Australia.  A more appropriate measure would be failure RATES by category.

[RFguy]

I think there is little point looking at RAAaus registered engine fail stats because there is very little data and even smaller reliable data.

 

It's unfair to compare apples and oranges,

--IE Lycomings are in majority in certified GA airplanes with strict maintenance and AD regimes and a reporting structure . 

-- Jabirus + Rotax  are mostly in LSA or experimental aircraft with highly variable maintenance standards and program,  and no AD regime and loose/no reporting structure.. 

 

in both cases, putting aside the variability of the quality of aviation mechanics, which is about as bad as any industry.

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by RFguy

[Jim188]

36 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

this is probably representative of the numbers but there are 10 times more Rotax flying then Jabiru's then it is no use in waving your flag.    Remember Rotax failures include 2-stroke as well normally although their numbers are in decline.

Hi Flyboy1960,

 

I get it, some people around here like to have this Ford versa Holden, banter thing happening with Rotax and Jabiru,      

 

Sadly, but you missed my point, I was not flying a flag for anyone. I was just very surprise to see the Rotax numbers like that coming from RAAus, because I have never meet anyone in my aviation world who knows of a 912/914 Rotax failure or anyone who may wish to acknowledges this, but it obviously does happens by the looks.   

 

Have great day.

 

Jim188  

 

[facthunter]

The difference is in the reception you get if you dare suggest there's anything at all wrong or could ever go wrong with a 912. It's like the holy grail. The biggest court case ever with RAAus was over a 912 failure. But of course I'd have to be making that up. Here we go. Nev.

[kgwilson]

The most popular and numerous recreational aircraft by far in Australia are Jabirus. There are 7 at our airfield with 9 aircraft sporting Jabiru engines, there are 3 Mooneys, 3 RVs, 2 Piper PA 28s and only 1 Cessna & several other 1 offs, 3 gyros & 2 trikes. I don't care if you don't like Jabirus, that is your choice but if you are too frightened to fly in a Jabiru engined aircraft you have chosen the wrong sport.

 

The flying school here has a 170 & it is on its second engine after making 2000 hours TBO. It was more economical to put a new engine in than overhaul the old one. Treat them as you should and maintain them by the book and you will have many years of happy flying. In saying that every engine no matter what type or cost can and will fail. Proper treatment and maintenance will reduce the risk of failure dramatically.

 

I have a Gen 3 3300 with 400 hours since new. I maintain it meticulously, run it on 98 Petrol & it has never missed a beat. I change the oil every 25 hours & never have to top up between changes & the oil stays relatively clean throughout.

 

I like the engines simplicity & direct drive and it sounds like a real aero engine. I can pull it apart to every last nut & bolt if I want to.

 

Rotax 912s are very reliable & good engines but complicated, with lots of plumbing and expensive and they fail like everything else. I'd never attempt any serious maintenance though.

[facthunter]

We've always had this cultural cringe about Australian made products. One of the reasons the Later Victa's (aircraft) were made in New Zealand.  Nev

[RFguy]

From my perspective :

-Jabirus tend to have hard failures (engine stops - but usually there will have been maintenance canary in the cage warning unheeded) . Jabiru could be more communicative / proactive so people didnt find out their flywheel fell off and Jabiru knew they were falling off...

-Rotaxes seem to have more nuisance failures that are unlikely to down the airplane unless they distract the pilot.  (multiple carb linkages /cables for choke+throttle  etc are generally trouble unless done right leaving one side rich/unbalanced), ignition module failures, behaviour of engine and richness at low gas velocities, coolant leaks + radiator expansion cap problems,  oil leaks or oil pressure issues (usually due to wrong installation) , 

yes, both throw pistons.

Edited January 5, 2023 by RFguy

[jackc]

IF people are worried about engine failures  then maybe some Glider training is in order for them? Sure wont lose anything about doing that.  Some airline Captains have managed to Glide 300Tonne plus airliners to a safe landing, calling on their gliding experience to save their”s and the passengers bacon, AND keep their aircraft in one piece, too. 

[rgmwa]

34 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The most popular and numerous recreational aircraft by far in Australia are Jabirus. There are 7 at our airfield with 9 aircraft sporting Jabiru engines, there are 3 Mooneys, 3 RVs, 2 Piper PA 28s and only 1 Cessna & several other 1 offs, 3 gyros & 2 trikes. 

We have six Jabirus at our airfield and probably a similar number of other types with Jabiru engines. On the other hand there are 25 RV's as well as numerous other types. It would be interesting to know if Jabs are under-represented in the West for some reason compared to other parts of Australia.

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

IF people are worried about engine failures  then maybe some Glider training is in order for them? Sure wont lose anything about doing that.  Some airline Captains have managed to Glide 300Tonne plus airliners to a safe landing, calling on their gliding experience to save their”s and the passengers bacon, AND keep their aircraft in one piece, too. 

I don't like people using the gliding analogy or terms like outlanding when the situation is with most RA aircraft that the glide like a brick and if rag & tube you really need to make every power reduction an EFATO and have the nose down picking up speed before the engine stops. Then you have options. Certainly you can glide at the glide ratio of the aircraft IF under the sudden emergency you can remember what it is and there is unlimited rolling landing savannah beneath you, but forced landings are rare enough that most people haven't thought about them since the last practice when they knew one was coming, knew what the wind was, had prepped themselves. However if you take the example of the Wentworth Pilot who put down in floodwaters in a swamp with open treescape, you'll do OK. RA went through a bad period when most people just did nothing including several members of this forum. One great guy, when his amphib engine failed, a pusher on a pedestal pulled the nose up, he stalled and died. So the Forced Landings are well worth focusing on, then it doesn't matter if you have an engine failure a month, you're in the survival groove.

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

We have six Jabirus at our airfield and probably a similar number of other types with Jabiru engines. On the other hand there are 25 RV's as well as numerous other types. It would be interesting to know if Jabs are under-represented in the West for some reason compared to other parts of Australia.

Person to person referrals most likely, we see that with vehicle market shares also. Kontos of people in an Industry or district follow the leader; in fact to be good at marketing you need to know the hotspots. In some towns every wife's car is a Land Cruiser, in other towns a mixture.

[derekliston]

1 hour ago, Jim188 said:

Hi Flyboy1960,

 

I get it, some people around here like to have this Ford versa Holden, banter thing happening with Rotax and Jabiru,      

 

Sadly, but you missed my point, I was not flying a flag for anyone. I was just very surprise to see the Rotax numbers like that coming from RAAus, because I have never meet anyone in my aviation world who knows of a 912/914 Rotax failure or anyone who may wish to acknowledges this, but it obviously does happens by the looks.   

 

Have great day.

 

Jim188  

 

Just ask about a very well known pilot, might even still find some of his old posts on this site, known as Maj Millard. He died flying a Rotax powered machine after an EFATO and I believe an attempted 180° return!

[jackc]

Turbs, Try a cable break on a Glider winch launch at about 400ft?  One moment you are heading for the Moon, BANG……and if you are not suddenly pointed at the ground within milliseconds…..you can have a big problem, on your hands? 

[coljones]

1 hour ago, rgmwa said:

We have six Jabirus at our airfield and probably a similar number of other types with Jabiru engines. On the other hand there are 25 RV's as well as numerous other types. It would be interesting to know if Jabs are under-represented in the West for some reason compared to other parts of Australia.

Which airfield? Public or private?

[BrendAn]

Yltv must be the winner. I think there are around 29 jabirus and some jab powered homebuilts.

 

[rgmwa]

37 minutes ago, coljones said:

Which airfield? Public or private?

Serpentine.