Two helicopters collide on the Gold Coast 02/01/23

[Jim188]

Red750 would you like to paste the link?

[red750]

Watched it on  the Channel 7 News. They may have it in their website. I don't have a link.

[red750]

Quick search found this.  https://7news.com.au/news/qld/inside-the-cockpit-moment-tourist-raises-alarm-seconds-before-fatal-gc-helicopter-crash-c-9351688

[turboplanner]

I bought a ticket for my daughter on one of those helicopters out of Sea World, and it was a production line of flights one after the other taking off and landing, but at that time the helicopters had a different colour scheme and were taking off to the south and vacating the area to the south and entering for a landing from the north, so busy but orderly. At Grand Canyon I saw the same pattern, helicopters 5 wide all taking off away from the canyon, and landings coming in behind the departing helicopters.

 

What the video taken through the fence at Sea World shows is one climbing out to the south and the other entering for a landing tracking to the east and starting a turn north for landing. There ould have been some parallax and there could have been designated lanes, but the ATSB will get the accurate tracks.

[flying dog]

Yeah, it is sad.

 

Radio calls should be listened to seriously.

 

Isn't there a rule that landing aircraft have priority over ones taking off?

 

Things I "see" wrong with what I've heard/seen.

 

"Blind spots" - although the one landing may not have seen the one taking off, the one taking off should have seen the one landing.   Looking up to a blue sky with a big black object in/on it.

 

The "Tap on the shoulder warning".   I'm skeptical.  Sorry.

Fair enough "they" may have seen the other helicopter and were trying to alert the pilot.

But there should have been clear rules on WHAT TO DO IF YOU SEE ANOTHER HELICOPTER.

Yeah, ok, shaking the $hit out of the pilot also wouldn't be a good idea, but that "tap" looked more like a "Hey, can you ......." type rather than a "Huston we have a problem" tap.

[spenaroo]

yeah... but there is also the whole rule of, straight in approaches give way to aircraft in the circuit.
 

I have zero helicopter experience, but seems like there was no circuit.
I feel like time will be a factor, trying to get the quickest turnaround.

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, flying dog said:

but that "tap" looked more like a "Hey, can you ......." type rather than a "Huston we have a problem" tap.

I agree. It is impossible to interpret what the passenger meant. Fortunately, I think that he is alive to ask.

[facthunter]

Bit of a very good effort to get THAT chopper down. The other one had no hope.  Nev

[willedoo]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

I agree. It is impossible to interpret what the passenger meant. Fortunately, I think that he is alive to ask.

It looks like the passenger wouldn't have had time to do much else. He notices the other chopper and is pointing to it, probably to another passenger. The pilot has a headset on, so wouldn't have heard him. Then the passenger taps him on the right shoulder which diverts the pilots vision in the opposite direction of the approaching second helicopter. It would have happened quickly.

 

Unfortunately, passengers can sometimes be hesitant to point out a potential problem or question a pilot. I know of one charter flight accident where the pilot forgot to put the gear down. A couple of the blokes in the back noticed the landing gear lights weren't right and were indecisive about telling the pilot. They assumed it was a minor fault with the lights that the pilot knew about. The end result, the pilot died and the front seat passenger was severely injured and brain damaged for life. If the passengers had alerted the pilot, it would have been avoidable. That particular incident was a company charter where there was a pre existing level of familiarity between passengers and pilot. For passengers on a flight with a totally unknown pilot, it could be even a bit more intimidating to speak up. By intimidating, I mean the old layman/professional thing, where the passengers don't feel it's their place to speak up.

Edited January 5, 2023 by willedoo

[sfGnome]

I’ve always told my passengers that from the point where we’re approaching the circuit, they mustn’t talk to me UNLESS they see something that worries them. So far, thankfully, none have had to do so. 

[facthunter]

I've done the opposite. Tell me of other aircraft. (Resource management.) Nev

[sfGnome]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I've done the opposite. Tell me of other aircraft. (Resource management.) Nev

Fair enough. What I wanted them to understand was that I didn’t want to be discussing how beautiful that landscape was or explaining what the flaps were for, but at the same time if they saw something odd, not to assume that I’d seen it too. Getting them to scan for other aircraft would be well worth adding to my standard spiel. 

[facthunter]

You're right  about the DISTRACTIVE talk, but there are often distractions you have to ignore. Priority assessing.Like warning horns etc that have faiied. I even had a stick shaker one time at 200 ft. Had to cope with it and the F/O. Nev

[facthunter]

Just to add Don't ignore warnings but you CAN verify things are OK (thoroughly) and then you have to ignore the warning OR you'll completely ballsup the landing and everything else.. To go around would not be the most appropriate action. Nev

[red750]

I remember way back when Ansett-ANA flew a helicopter shuttle city to Essendon in Bell 47J's. I rode that trip a number of times. Above the pilot's head was a notice "DO NOT TALK TO PILOT". I got to know one of the pilots well, and he used to flip that notice up when I was aboard.

[Flightrite]

The opposition doing the same trip😂

[Flightrite]

I do NOT involve pax in any flight decisions, they are more a hinderance than being helpful and could actually be the reason you F…up!

[facthunter]

Depends on the circumstances and the Pax. The BUCK always stops with you.  Nev

[red750]

Here's a couple of pics I should have included in my previous post.

 

[derekliston]

Just looking on 9news at the onboard video of the helicopter collision and I wondered how long they have used these particular machines? I could be wrong but these are literally the only type of helicopter that I know of that are flown from the left seat. If you look at that video you can see that the pilot of the one taking off would have been unable to see the one above and to his right, whereas if he was piloting from what I consider helicopter normal, he would have been able to see it from his side window. No idea why the landing one didn’t see him apart from it being very difficult to discern a black helicopter against ground clutter, particularly if it’s position was apparently stationary as objects appear when on a collision course! Just makes me wonder whether flight procedures were designed for machines flown from the right seat? In any case, so very very sad for the people who perished. We love helicopters and consider them the absolute best way of sightseeing and have flown in them many times although only ever in single machine operations where obviously any danger of collision is very much reduced. Have to wonder also about their radio calls? I wish ATSB all the best trying to sort out what happened. At least they have one pilot and a planeload of eyewitnesses to interview! Sorry about the screed, but as a pilot myself, I am really interested in the safety aspects!

[derekliston]

I more often than not fly solo, but on those occasions that I have a passenger, I always ask them not to just assume that I’ve seen another aircraft, but to point it out to me! Other than that don’t talk unless I ask them something!

[rgmwa]

No doubt there will be a number of contributing factors that led to this sad outcome but having landing and take-off flight paths able to cross at right angles must be high on the list of suspects if that was normal procedure.

[red750]

From what I saw on the video, and it's only a video, probably from a smartphone, the departing helicopter was very difficult to see even when circled on the screen, and as was pointed out,the thick door pillar blocked the pilot's view in that direction. 

 

[onetrack]

I was under the impression that the principle of "see and be seen" was to ensure you know at all times, what is in your blind spots, or approaching towards your blind spots.

Then there's the potential that any aircraft on collision course with you, may appear to be motionless, if your courses are converging in a manner that facilitates this problem.

Either way, one cannot help but come to the opinion that the sky scanning techniques of both these pilots were seriously deficient.

Especially so, as they worked for the same company, and must have known that other helicopters operating the same joyflights, would be in the near vicinity.

The procedure deficiencies in this companies operations are going to fill pages of the ATSB report.

 

https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/visual-scanning-technique

[old man emu]

17 hours ago, sfGnome said:

Getting them to scan for other aircraft would be well worth adding to my standard spiel.

A grain of Good coming from this incident.

 

If you do, remember good practice is to implement a procedure, then review its effectiveness it attaining the goal it was introduced to achieve. If it falls short, anend, implement and go through the process again.