Two helicopters collide on the Gold Coast 02/01/23

[facthunter]

There are few aircraft with better vision than helicopters. Airliners would be amongst the worst. LHS for PIC is pretty standard for side by side. Most helicopters are wrong. LH circuits are  preferred UNLESS there's a good reason for otherwise.   Nev

[derekliston]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

There are few aircraft with better vision than helicopters. Airliners would be amongst the worst. LHS for PIC is pretty standard for side by side. Most helicopters are wrong. LH circuits are  preferred UNLESS there's a good reason for otherwise.   Nev

Wrong for fixed wing has always been pretty standard for helicopters! Not that I know ALL helicopters, but I can’t think of another one with PIC on left! As I’ve said, we almost always take a helicopter tour when available and pretty much for ever, certainly for over 40yrs, that is how it has been. My first helicopter ride would have been a Hughes 600 back in the ‘70s and since then, Bell 47, Jetranger, Longranger, Squirrel and R44, all right seat PIC, plus one on the Barrier Reef that I can’t identify, Bell of some sort I think.p

[facthunter]

A agree what current usual practice is for Crazy Palm Trees.  EVERYTHING else is  LEFT seat PIC and the preferred circuit is LH. I've not seen helicopters doing normal circuits so perhaps it's not that important.  Nev

[kgwilson]

My personal take for this unfortunate incident is something that affects everyone at some point in their flying career, Complacency. The pilots in this situation were doing 5 & 10 minute flights continuously with a line up of paying punters waiting. I'd find that quite boring. We don't know if any radio calls were made. Possibly they weren't. Blind spots need to be dealt with as a standard procedure. The holes in the SC were all aligned.

[facthunter]

Later pictures from the surviving copter show for sure at least 2 pax were aware of the approaching climbing heli.. Maybe these guys do this thing all day long. I've done the same sort of thing in a plane doing joyflights or locked on Canberra SYD and return 3  times though that's much more complex with heaps of clearances  and frequency changes. Perhaps the routine is too repetitive and non-challenging just around a beach that it's zombie making.  Nev

[flying dog]

On 05/01/2023 at 2:14 PM, facthunter said:

I've done the opposite. Tell me of other aircraft. (Resource management.) Nev

But I think sfGnome did specify UNLESS IT IS IMPORTANT.....

(And ok, the conversation  has kind of covered that since then)

[Flightrite]

Whirly Gig drivers rarely do circuits like us plank drivers, there’s no need to.

I’m  still going with miss comms & pax distractions are the root cause, as well as the old commercial pressures, ever present where big bucks can be had!

[facthunter]

Yes for sure and sitting in the left seat should have helped the  returning chopper see. We fly U/L's with five in the circuit. Still, it's a tragic outcome for nothing wrong with the craft. Nev

[kgwilson]

Passenger distractions is something that every pilot and especially commercial Joy rider jockeys should be acutely aware of and be able to ignore or shut them out.

[Flightrite]

I’ve done hundreds of joy rides in twins a hundred years ago, most times I had to endure a pax in the other control seat, absolute PITA most were.  You can’t always control them, they’re excited mostly and don’t understand the potentially dangerous situation they are in! I’ve  had them bath me in their lunch, had flashes go off right in my face (night Ops), grab me cause they were sh1t scared! Whirly Gig drivers would have to endure this many times a day in at times a very demanding environment flying a far more complex machine than some basic 10 seat twin! 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Flightrite

[facthunter]

Having turbines takes a lot of the tension out of flying heli's. Better than a Lycoming on it's end driving about 8 V belts. I'm happy to not fly in them, thanks   Nev

[Garfly]

 

 

 

[rgmwa]

Discussion of blind spots and comms is all very relevant, but to me the main cause is departing to the south and approaching from the west. Surely the circuit procedure should have had them landing and taking off in the same direction.

[onetrack]

Whoever set up the procedures here possibly thought that aircraft approaching at 90° to each other would make for easy sighting. However, with 20-20 hindsight, we can now see the problems with that procedure. One has to remember, there have been plenty of mid-airs, as two aircraft approach a landing area, in-line. Altitude separation is obviously one area here, that was never addressed.

[flying dog]

I guess with all this new information:

 

Better decisions are made.  For the greater good of all.

 

[facthunter]

fd that has been the purpose of aviation enquiries from the beginning of flight. Those who would seek only to punish  reduce the effectiveness of the process.  Nev

Edited January 8, 2023 by facthunter

[flying dog]

(I'm only saying.)

 

I guess sometimes people make themselves too important and forget the job.

 

[Captain]

Juan Brown has nailed it.

 

It will be interesting to learn what was discussed in the SeaWorld operation about left hand circuits when they converted to these choppers.

[derekliston]

On 5/1/2023 at 6:48 PM, derekliston said:

Just looking on 9news at the onboard video of the helicopter collision and I wondered how long they have used these particular machines? I could be wrong but these are literally the only type of helicopter that I know of that are flown from the left seat. If you look at that video you can see that the pilot of the one taking off would have been unable to see the one above and to his right, whereas if he was piloting from what I consider helicopter normal, he would have been able to see it from his side window. No idea why the landing one didn’t see him apart from it being very difficult to discern a black helicopter against ground clutter, particularly if it’s position was apparently stationary as objects appear when on a collision course! Just makes me wonder whether flight procedures were designed for machines flown from the right seat? In any case, so very very sad for the people who perished. We love helicopters and consider them the absolute best way of sightseeing and have flown in them many times although only ever in single machine operations where obviously any danger of collision is very much reduced. Have to wonder also about their radio calls? I wish ATSB all the best trying to sort out what happened. At least they have one pilot and a planeload of eyewitnesses to interview! Sorry about the screed, but as a pilot myself, I am really interested in the safety aspects!

Just learned that they have only operated these since November which I think maybe reinforces my comment regarding right seat PIC procedures?

[onetrack]

The preliminary report has been released. Not a lot more in it that what we already know - apart from the fact the pilot of the returning Eurocopter says he did not hear any taxiing call from the Eurocopter taking off, and he previously sighted the Eurocopter on the landing pad taking on pax, and estimated the aircraft would pass behind him after takeoff.

 

There was also a problem with the returning Eurocopters transponder, which was not transmitting secondary surveillance radar responses. The company was aware of the problem, but had not investigated it, as there was no requirement for the transponders to be fully operational, as they weren't operating in controlled airspace.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2023/report/ao-2023-001

[facthunter]

It's an accident that should NOT have happened. They both knew they were sharing the same space,  Nev

[onetrack]

"Keeping a proper lookout" when operating in frequent close proximity to other aircraft, seems to be a concept that was foreign to these 2 helicopter pilots. Perhaps the company pressure was all about ensuring the pax were all looked after, and safe aircraft operation was much further down the list.

The left seat operation arrangement of the Eurocopters should have raised important questions when they arrived, and modified operating procedures and further training should have been introduced into the company procedures, to cater for that major deviation from the norm.

The restrictions in the field of vision of certain areas of the Eurocopter is obviously something that was not addressed as a matter of great importance.

[spenaroo]

was talking with a friend on the weekend of the number of aircraft I have had, turn in-front of my path while I'm in the circuit at the airfield I fly from. one taking off with no radio calls.
and the difficulty I have in keeping situational awareness.....

 

this friend of mine instructs with Asian airlines students.

He then let slip that the operation he is with have banned it as a destination for training flights - (still allow personal hire and fly there)
for the same reasons I have difficulties with.

I wonder if its a similar situation here, how many other operators avoid the area these helicopters operated for similar reasons.
how many of us take note of jump planes and their frequent cycles... then look at the tempo of these 5 minute flights, from effectively 6(?) active runways

Edited March 7, 2023 by spenaroo

[Thruster88]

Imagine you are inbound to this airport. How many radio calls would it take to get situational awareness versus what can be seen in a few seconds on a screen. The future is here, we just all have to get on board.  

[spenaroo]

just finished reading the report, this was my takeaway:
 

Quote

 

The ground crew assisted passengers into XKQ, fastened the passengers’ seatbelts and helped with the passengers’ headsets. The ground crew reported that they completed a final visual check of the helicopter, which included checking all the doors were closed and ensuring the surrounding area was free from hazards, and signalled to the pilot that XKQ was ready for departure. They then went to prepare passengers and information for the next flight. The ground crew later reported that they had not seen any other aircraft before giving the signal for the pilot to depart.

 

Safety action

The operator reported that it intended to address elements of aircraft visibility and aids to traffic detection. This included:

• high visibility paint on rotor blades
• additional strobe lighting on helicopters
• introduction of helipad controllers who can provide traffic advice to pilots
• use of live radar data displayed on an iPad in the cockpit.

 

• how much importance was put on the ground crew information relayed to the pilots? I didnt quote it but further in the report it talks about them instructing the pilots via hand signals on the length of the flight.

Edited March 8, 2023 by spenaroo