Radio calls in the circuit

[jackc]

Are pilots too stupid to work out a strategy on arrival, assess the requirements to be safe?  So you want to beat he CASA rules to death? Play CASA super snitch?   This event is all about having fun?   Jus ditch the attitude and count it as a great day. 

[sfGnome]

At the risk of being shot at, I’ll (cautiously) put my head above the parapet and suggest…

 

What if, instead of having the finish point at the airport (where the workload is the heaviest and the risk the greatest), perhaps have the finish point somewhere a few miles away. Put a series of countdown markers on successive paddocks that are easily visible from 500-1000’ AGL, and have the pilot make their finish call as they cross the last one. Observers on the ground can ascertain whether the aircraft is actually there when the call is made, and they can do so in complete safety. All the competitors will be coming from the same direction, so there’s little chance of crossing paths.
 

The downside that I can see is that it adds yet another call on CTAF (10 mile, finish, joining crosswind & turning base). You could use a chat frequency for the finish call, but that leaves the pilot fiddling with tuning when they should be preparing for the circuit. Dunno 🤷‍♀️ 

[old man emu]

The decision has been made. A competitor's ATA will be the time that they call "clear of runway" How they get to that point, I don't give a damn since I have no control over the expressions of individuality of pilots.

[kgwilson]

2 hours ago, aro said:

Bad idea. You are not ATC so you can't tell other aircraft to do anything.

 

It is always the pilots responsibility for his/her own safety even if that means breaking rules. If the situation requires it I'll break away. 

 

Pilots who insist on coming straight in when there is already an established circuit happening are irresponsible. In those situations joining overhead , descending on the dead side and then slotting in to the circuit is the correct and safest thing to do.

[turboplanner]

Here's the current CASA information on use of Radio:

 

Aeronautical Radio Operations

An Aeronautical Radio Operator Certificate (AROC) is required by anyone who needs to communicate on an aviation air-band radio frequency and is not already licensed or qualified.

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certificates/radio-operators#

 

Radio procedures in non-controlled airspace

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/operations-safety-and-travel/airspace/airspace-regulation/radio-procedures-non-controlled-airspace

 

If you fly, or want to fly in controlled airspace the procedures are more formal and you'll find them on the CASA website.

[aro]

9 hours ago, kgwilson said:

It is always the pilots responsibility for his/her own safety even if that means breaking rules. If the situation requires it I'll break away. 

In an emergency, you can break rules if required for safety. Someone landing ahead of you off a straight in approach is not an emergency. You create the unsafe situation by knowingly turning base in front of them.

 

Instructors locally were complaining about pilots assigning sequence numbers to other aircraft. I was sceptical that it happens. I guess I was wrong.

[kgwilson]

Agreeing sequence numbers among pilots in a circuit is common courtesy and common sense so you all know the order of landing. This is also why ATC does it. Someone coming straight in when the circuit is already established is obnoxious and being lazy when they should have joined the established circuit. The straight in pilot knows the RIU from radio calls of those already in the circuit. Nobody likes queue jumpers.

 

CASA has produced a simple guide for radio calls in uncontrolled airspace entitled "Be seen, be heard, be safe". It is free on line and they will send hard copies free as well.

[RossK]

OME, can I suggest you have an overfly type finish point close to the aerodrome, but not in conflict with the circuit. this way no one is trying to fight for their position to protect their finish time.

As you say, it's only going to take 1 idiot to mess this up for everyone.

I know it's more work, but I would suggest it's safer; I'm sure you've seen this from the Serpentine Air Race rules

 

SECTION 16 – FINISHING

16.1 On arrival back to the airfield, pilots are to fly at the briefed height over such points as are designated on the aerodrome pre-flight briefing.

16.2 Observers and timekeepers will be stationed at designated points to visually identify aircraft arriving overhead.

16.3 An aircraft will be timed as crossing the designated point the moment the aircraft passes over the timekeepers stationed at that point.

16.4 After arriving over the top, competitors are to adopt normal circuit procedure. Sudden changes of direction or speed are prohibited after crossing the designated points, but pilots should land in the minimum time consistent with the traffic conditions and safety.

16.5 After landing it is mandatory to taxi to the allotted parking space before stopping the engine.

 

Alternatively if you want the finish at the aerodrome, the finish could be the crosswind join for the circuit;

For 04, AC must overfly midfield at 1500ft agl, decend on the dead side and join 04 crosswind, finish is when they cross runway centreline.

For 22, AC join crosswind 22 at 1000ft agl, finsh is when they cross runway centreline.

They will be broadcasting their 10m inbound and should also broadcast their joining crosswind, which gives your observers, who, what and where to look for.

 

[Old Koreelah]

I suspect some pilots will be too focussed on the clock as they make their approach.

 

For this low-time pilot, joining a busy circuit woukd be less stressful if I knew there was a skilled caller on the ground, as we have had at AustFly. He/she can warn of someone sneaking up in my blind spots.

Would it be feasable to have a Battle of Britain-style plot board to show the location of competitors, especially as they near the finish line?

 

[facthunter]

How'd you do that without radar and a transponder? The ID numbers/letters are hard to see these days  Report sighting and follow the Mumbo Jumbo on long final.   I once got vectored at Mascot to final on 16 In front of a DC-6b. I was in an Auster J1 n from Bankstown. a had to fly final at above cruise speed to keep ahead and land and vacate quickly to avoid sending him around. It wasn't my error. The tower misjudged it, but I still didn't want to be in the Evening News  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

54 minutes ago, facthunter said:

How'd you do that without radar and a transponder?

I hope everyone has a SkyEcho or similar. Everyone, including those of us on the ground, could then see the big picture.

 

[turboplanner]

58 minutes ago, facthunter said:

How'd you do that without radar and a transponder? The ID numbers/letters are hard to see these days  Report sighting and follow the Mumbo Jumbo on long final.   I once got vectored at Mascot to final on 16 In front of a DC-6b. I was in an Auster J1 n from Bankstown. a had to fly final at above cruise speed to keep ahead and land and vacate quickly to avoid sending him around. It wasn't my error. The tower misjudged it, but I still didn't want to be in the Evening News  Nev

That sort of action is routine in a busy city airport - speed up if you are in font of a C210, flaps, power back hanging in the air if you're behind a C150, and as you're doing that the others are also building the space up by going wide, coming in etc, but you've read the posts above, some even after I'd posted correct radio procedure, inventing their own. You can't expect these people, who may fly only from the one country airfield where two in the circuit is a worry, to converge on an uncontrolled aerodrome and all synchronise with correct procedures. You have to face the fact that it's not going to happen and still plan something safe.

[facthunter]

I agree with the need but the issue is legality. If for example you could arrange  for ATC if My Avalon experience is any gauge you'd be there till 1/2 the planes ran out of fuel. Broad casting runway  and  verified QNH will avoid the need to  overfly to see the windsock(s) and the risky let down into a circuit. THAT has to be a bonus. Nev

[tillmanr]

At the Ausfly events I participated in at Narromine and Temora, the ground radio operators were purely advisory. They did not and stated they would not control the traffic. They were controllers professionally. 
Amazingly at Narromine one aircraft landed against the established traffic pattern when another aircraft was departing without making any radio calls. Same runway.

Edited January 17, 2023 by tillmanr
Adding text

[Bruce Tuncks]

I have seen a gliding gaggle of a dozen or so gliders all landing together. They made it look easy and I don't think it was that dangerous. It was from a straight-in and they had no height to do a circuit anyway. It was into the sea-breeze however.

I reckon OME that you just need to spell out the dangers and recommended  procedures( all in accordance with the regs of course ) and  mail these to the participants , then enjoy the show.

[turboplanner]

13 minutes ago, tillmanr said:

At the Ausfly events I participated in at Narromine and Temora, the ground radio operators were purely advisory. They did not and stated they would not control the traffic. They were controllers professionally. 
Amazingly at Narromine one aircraft landed against the established traffic pattern when another aircraft was departing without making any radio calls. Same runway.

One year the Avalon Airshow came to a halt while a lone Cessna 172 cruised straight over the top, didn't make any calls, didn't repond to any calls, missed the Light Aircraft Lane by miles, and continued on.

[facthunter]

There were always planes flying through Penfield  circuit without any knowledge of it or any calls Same with Romsey.  Nev

[Love to fly]

Maybe have a look a this document.  Excerpts below. When did base calls become mandatory?  And for many of us if we're doing a tight circuit the timing won't be much difference between base and final anyway.

'WHEN YOU MUST  MAKE A BROADCAST The one time you must make a broadcast is in a situation where you recognise a potential conflict between your aircraft and another in the vicinity of a noncontrolled aerodrome. In this case, it is your responsibility to acknowledge the situation by transmitting your callsign and, as appropriate, your aircraft type, position, level and intentions.'  

Following tables in the document give recommendations for when calls should be made.  Nothing prohibits a final call that I can find.

radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

[Neil_S]

19 hours ago, facthunter said:

There were always planes flying through Penfield  circuit without any knowledge of it or any calls Same with Romsey.  Nev

Still happens.....

[facthunter]

I don't doubt it. It affects Riddell's Creek too.  Nev

[facthunter]

People are cutting around the edge of the control area for Tullamarine tracking Kilmore -Geelong or Ballarat (SW). Go above  circuit height at Penfield and you'll l infringe CTA.  Nev

[spenaroo]

had a guy cut across the circuit at circuit height on the weekend at Aldinga.
took off from a private strip the other side of the main road that's normally used as a landmark for circuits.
turn across the front of me as I was crosswind - I busted altitude before turning downwind to avoid him.
then he flew right over the airfield. at circuit height, all with zero radio calls @2pm ish on a Saturday.

to make it better, there was 3 helicopters less then a 1km away over the town/beach that had cleared the airspace for a life saving exercise (500ft, 2000ft, 4000ft from memory).

the guy did it again crossing over the field and doing a steep just past it while I was taxiing after landing
 

[kgwilson]

If I knew who it was I'd make a point of contacting him and making him aware of his poor airmanship, of course in the nicest possible way. Most people will respond positively if approached correctly. If they become defensive or worse aggressive it is time to back off and write a report to CASA and hold nothing back..