Microlight insurance for new pilots in New Zealand.

[AVIDSteve]

Hi All,

I have done the rounds of several brokers including one suggested by this forum (Thanks IBob). But it appears they will not insure us. They have various reasons.

1) tail dragger

2) 2-stroke

3) Ab-initio training

4) just not feeling the vibe.

One suggested they would only look at it after I have 100 hours plus tail dragger endorsement and 10 hrs on the plane (presumably uninsured).  (18000nzd min)

Does anyone have a company that does insure these aircraft with those, (what I would consider), not exactly far-fetched elements? Do the club planes have it? I don't want to fill out 30 insurers forms that are all identical and I figure someone must have done this recently or have I just stumbled onto a well kept secret? Do I need to point out that the Wright bros managed to survive a tail dragger without training? Yes I know they broke a few but imagine if they had had training.

Cheers

Steve

[facthunter]

They do actuarial studies and base their Business plan on that. Statistically in your circumstances you are not a good risk. If you limit your cover like on ground  only the price will drop. Tailwheel  frightens them off till you've proven your worth by doing hours without mishap. Same with 2 stroke. Some of them experience quite a lot of failures. How safe that is depends on where and how you fly. They have NO idea how safe YOU will be.  Nev

[AVIDSteve]

11 minutes ago, facthunter said:

They do actuarial studies and base their Business plan on that. Statistically in your circumstances you are not a good risk. If you limit your cover like on ground  only the price will drop. Tailwheel  frightens them off till you've proven your worth by doing hours without mishap. Same with 2 stroke. Some of them experience quite a lot of failures. How safe that is depends on where and how you fly. They have NO idea how safe YOU will be.  Nev

That might be Nev. However they did not even offer on ground. They just blanked it. Some said the tail wheel was scary, some said that was ok but training was not. Some said training and tail wheel was no worries but no way to 2 stroke. Zero consistency. And the 100hours?

Anyway. I am not here discuss the virtues (or lack of) of insurers. I am after advice from people who are in the same boat or recently were, and managed to get insurance. Experienced pilots telling me i am a bad risk does not solve my problem.

[facthunter]

IT wasn't intended to be personal at all.  They aren't compelled to take anyone on. You are NOT unique having this difficulty.   Nev

[AVIDSteve]

Allow me to simplify the post as it seems I was unclear. Does anyone have a solution or practical advice to the following.

Does anyone have a company that does insure these aircraft? Do the club planes have it? Someone must have done this recently (last few years) so if they can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

 

 

[onetrack]

Steve, try contacting the people in the link below. Despite being U.K. based, they apparently do insure outside of Europe, and I noted a NZ "Business Terms" page on their site.

 

Essentially, you need to find an underwriter who is prepared to take the risk of insuring you - and that means someone who is very familiar with aviation insurance, and the risks involved with each area of aviation.

 

Back in the day when I owned and operated a sizeable business operation, I had an insurance broker who negotiated with insurance companies on my behalf, and my broker knew exactly which company was prepared to take on whatever particular risk was involved. Many companies select specific fields of insurance coverage that they know and understand, and they will not insure anything outside their chosen field.

 

https://www.traffords-insurance.co.uk/Aviation

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by onetrack

[AVIDSteve]

3 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Steve, try contacting the people in the link below. Despite being U.K. based, they apparently do insure outside of Europe, and I noted a NZ "Business Terms" page on their site.

 

Essentially, you need to find an underwriter who is prepared to take the risk of insuring you - and that means someone who is very familiar with aviation insurance, and the risks involved with each area of aviation.

 

https://www.traffords-insurance.co.uk/Aviation

Thanks very much for that info. I will look them up and let everyone know if it is successful. 

[AVIDSteve]

10 hours ago, onetrack said:

Steve, try contacting the people in the link below. Despite being U.K. based, they apparently do insure outside of Europe, and I noted a NZ "Business Terms" page on their site.

 

Essentially, you need to find an underwriter who is prepared to take the risk of insuring you - and that means someone who is very familiar with aviation insurance, and the risks involved with each area of aviation.

 

Back in the day when I owned and operated a sizeable business operation, I had an insurance broker who negotiated with insurance companies on my behalf, and my broker knew exactly which company was prepared to take on whatever particular risk was involved. Many companies select specific fields of insurance coverage that they know and understand, and they will not insure anything outside their chosen field.

 

https://www.traffords-insurance.co.uk/Aviation

 

Many thanks for the recommendation Onetrack. I have secured at least third party through these folks for a couple of hundred NZ dollars which at least covers a million worth of damage if I clip a private jet.

They won't do hull insurance untill 150hrs which is excessive but at least it is a start.

 

So there you have it folks. It can be done with a little help from the flying community, and looking outside NZ for insurers. If everyone moves their insurance OS then maybe the local companies will come back into line and start covering again.

 

[johnm]

probably telling you how to suck eggs ASteve ................... have you tried an insurance broker ? 

 

 

[AVIDSteve]

6 minutes ago, johnm said:

probably telling you how to suck eggs ASteve ................... have you tried an insurance broker ? 

 

 

Yeah mate. Three of them. useless.

[johnm]

OK Asteve - when I had plane - these people insured it and were good (it had a training wheel up front though)

 

give them a go ?

 

[AVIDSteve]

3 hours ago, johnm said:

OK Asteve - when I had plane - these people insured it and were good (it had a training wheel up front though)

 

give them a go ?

 

Thanks John,

I have filled out the form and sent it through. Never know., We need a similar system like Go compare. Fill in the BS once and let them come chase us as the customer.

[johnm]

another option might be that some aero clubs have a preferred insurer (in other words the 'insurer' gets all the business - some provisos are that you are a member of that club)

 

the aero club gets buying power - you might swing that one AvidSteve (get some club members on side - ................. an admin / aeronautical task for the future !)  

[AVIDSteve]

Hi all,

it took some doing and some great advice from the folks here but hull insurance is possible for two newbies in NZ with a 2 stroke tail dragger. The Crombie Lockwood folks found Agile aviation for us. It's not cheap at 4k a year but I'm sure that would go down after we rack up the appropriate magic number of hours. Their third party is a bit steep at 500 bucks. I hope other newbies can find this thread as I am sure there will be others come along in the same boat and it might help.

JENNI HELLYER  NZCERTFINSERV BROKER - AVIATION |  +64 27 486 4141 | crombielockwood.co.nz [email protected]

211 Commerce Street Kaitaia PO Box 72622, Papakura 2244

[old man emu]

The more people who insure with a particular company, the more the premium should come down. This is imply due to the fact that your premium is going into the pot to pay what claims arise. If ten people pay one dollar to cover a ten dollar risk for one year, then at the start of year 2, the pot contains $10 if there have been no claims. Therefore the insurer might be able to set the premium at 95 cents for year 2. The amount set as the premium is the insurer's odds that a claim won't be made.

[AVIDSteve]

10 hours ago, old man emu said:

The more people who insure with a particular company, the more the premium should come down. This is imply due to the fact that your premium is going into the pot to pay what claims arise. If ten people pay one dollar to cover a ten dollar risk for one year, then at the start of year 2, the pot contains $10 if there have been no claims. Therefore the insurer might be able to set the premium at 95 cents for year 2. The amount set as the premium is the insurer's odds that a claim won't be made.

Mate,

In my experience premiums don't go down unless there is competition. Insurance is a business not a charity. if a customer is willing to pay X one year, they sure as hell will not lower it for them next year just because others are also willing to pay through the nose. They will just charge everyone the maximum they can until someone undercuts them.

[old man emu]

9 hours ago, AVIDSteve said:

In my experience premiums don't go down unless there is competition.

A sad fact of Life.