Are Instructors retiring and not being replaced?

[Blueadventures]

19 minutes ago, Student Pilot said:

The price I quoted was just for the instructor, aircraft on top of that.

I recon about $80 would be a fair hourly rate; plus travel if applicable. I'll put my kevlar vest on now, just in case needed.

[BrendAn]

13 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

I recon about $80 would be a fair hourly rate; plus travel if applicable. I'll put my kevlar vest on now, just in case needed.

How much does the instructor have to pay raaus per year.

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

How much does the instructor have to pay raaus per year.

I mean is there some sort of licence fee to be paid annually.

[poteroo]

On 11/03/2023 at 7:32 PM, trailer said:

Does anyone else notice we are losing RAA instructors in regional areas and there doesn't seem to be new ones filling the gaps? Not sure about metropolitan areas but I hear it is not uncommon that people are finding it difficult to get training and bfrs. Is it too difficult to get the qualification or is just not worth it?

 

Probably a combination of oldies retiring, other schools with declining student numbers, and others closing because they simply can't make ends meet. In WA, it has been a rapid decrease in schools, with almost no schools remaining outside of  greater Perth, Bunbury and Busselton. In WA, it has been paralled by a decline in GA activity as well.

 

I'll describe our, (Albany) experience over the past 35 years. We have had a solid GA school operating 2,3 Cessnas, but they are closing the doors this 30/6 because the CFI has, essentially, had a 'gutfull of the CASA red tape' and with rising operational costs, and despite still reasonable student numbers, has reached her limit. (thank G that RAAus isn't anywhere as nitpicky as CASA, and that's been the difference between the schools).  Gone is a really excellent CFI/ATO with 10,000 hrs TT. So far, there's not been any whisper of a new entry, but who knows.

 

In my case, its' a different path to retirement. I've held a CPL since 1965, and after 5 years in PNG, moved to WA where I finished off my long held over IR, and just took on part-time instructing, specialising in tailwheel, low level, and experimental stuff. In 2005 I moved to Albany and setup an RAAus school, in full collaboration with the GA CFI. This ran successfully for 15 years, but increasing difficulties with CASA AVMED saw me lose my Class 1/2 in 2022, (at age 81 though). I had 15 students at the time, and we certainly didn't close because of lack of business. (Albany is a city of 36,000, with a large hinterland of very good farming country.).The cost of doing the seemingly endless tests, and the uncertainty and frustration of the whole process became too much for me. I quit!  Now, I'm also lost to the industry, with 15,000 hrs and a wide experience to pass onward. 

 

So, with both schools closed, this once very active training location has nothing left. I charged out a new Brumby at $220/hr, and this pretty much paid for it's running costs. There was nothing leftover for any salary though. Unforeseen maintenance items, and the real cost of a good LAME soon pulls the inputs back. Add to this the spiralling costs of insurance and fuel, and the ever rising charges applied at a full security regional airport, and I would have needed to raise charges this year to around $240-250/hr. 

 

That's not to say that an energetic new instructor couldn't make a go of things here - the big problem is the startup costs, and the need to be supervised by a CFI in the initial phases. Once we oldies lose that Class 2 medical, we cease to be able to supervise a new instructor - which I find really difficult to accept. Why can't this happen, because there is no risk to the junior instructor or SI, because they remain PIC for any flight checks. Even were the unthinkable to happen, (perhaps a medical with the I or SI), we oldies could still manage to save the day. After all most of us are probably still actively flying with an RPC. 

 

I hate to think of the future for RAAus unless there is some move to help younger pilots into instructing, in the regions, before it all becomes city centric.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Bernie]

Good post.

Bernie.

[trailer]

Potoroo - Thank you for what seems an amazing contribution to Aviation in Australia. 

 

I hope CASA and RAA read your post, it shows a need for action at a political level.

 

[trailer]

It would be interesting to know the average age of RAA pilots. Looking around aero clubs there seems to be a significant deficit of members under the age of 70. Senior members often own aircraft but rarely fly, if at all. 

 

We may already be in a perfect storm, red tape burocracy, spiralling costs, less activity with instruction and local flying creates less interest generally so numbers coming into the sport will not come close to replacing those hanging up their headsets.

 

It is deeply concerning to me.

 

[facthunter]

The BIG ROT started with McCormick. HE showed No ability or willingness to adapt to the AUF. RAAus concept.

    Also there's a limit to how much you should "dumb down" flying. Ultralight planes are often quite demanding to fly not just as regards the Inertia factor. Not everyone is" right " to fly and you have to keep recency for your own safety and of any passenger you take.. Instructors should do unusual attitudes recovery  as part of THEIR training and teach low flying. An instructor already has a  safety pilot and most instructional sessions are under one hour air time . Relax the Medical. I'm not confident of a good future. Perhaps we have been getting experienced instructor s on the cheap. My U/L instruction time was for free but I got a bit for expenses. sometimes. I didn't do it for MONEY. I saw it as a chance to put back something in an industry where a lot of time and money was spent on ME a lot of it My own money especially up to Commercial. Nev

[spacesailor]

To " dumb down " .

It probably is true ! , 

But to teach ' light-weight , or low powered aircraft , as if those pupils are going to fly G A & commercial airliners is also ' dumb ' .

An aircraft with less than 40 ltrs of fuel, or a max ceiling of 5,000 ft , shouldn't need all the testing a commercial pilot needs .

Basic flying ! .But one test for all , metioroligy, is great But if it' raining , all the testing in the world won't improve the weather. 

A U F, isn't G A and shouldn't have to know how a ' jetliner ' fly's .

Aviation is killing itself by being Far to " up themselves " , Brilcream boys . From the cream of society. 

( should be in gripes ) .

spacesailor

[farri]

23 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

 But to teach ' light-weight , or low powered aircraft , as if those pupils are going to fly G A & commercial airliners is also ' dumb '

If I`ve understood you correctly, I have to say I agree! 

 

23 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

An aircraft with less than 40 ltrs of fuel, or a max ceiling of 5,000 ft , shouldn't need all the testing a commercial pilot needs .

 

Agree again! why I said in a previous post the RAA needs to determine exactly which direction they want to go, for the future...As I understand it, an AC weight increase to 750 kg has been approve and 1,500 kg has been approved, in principle! either they become the new GA or they go back to some basics because I can`t see many of the younger guys, wanting to become RAA instructors, because they`ve just made it too difficult and expensive.

 

42 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

 A U F, isn't G A and shouldn't have to know how a ' jetliner ' fly's .

 

 

A bit off topic, I know, but that one took me back to when I was being checked out for my instructor certificate, by our then, AUF ops manager! he told me, I need to be able to instruct to a standard required to fly into Camden Airport and of course! I thought that was unrealistic as there was no one I knew who wanted to fly ultralight aircraft, into Camdem airport!

 

well! the AUF is now the RAA and unfortunately! with so many pilots coming over to RAA from GA, wanting all the privileges of GA, and students wanting those privileges, also, it`s understandable that instructors do need to be able to instruct to that standard.

 

The way I see it, RAA won`t be getting too many new instructors, any time soon! I sincerely hope, I`m wrong.

Franco.

[spacesailor]

I agree whole heartedly  ! With what you say .

Imagine the outcry  if ALL car drivers have to get a medical 1/2 AND a Security check each time they renewed their standard driving license. 

After all , lots of driver's pickup other ' mums' kids, whilst taking their brood to school ,without that ' children security check 'and a minibus commercial license. 

And the new standard  driving test for a car based on ALL types of vehicles!  ' tracked,  wheeled, marine, plus of course , That ' one size fits all , aviation .

" Such is life " .   (  perhaps I shouldn't put it out there as it may be used against me ) . LoL

spacesailor

 

[BrendAn]

how does raaus actually work, how come it is a private company . and they buy investment propertys with our fees,

is the organisation self insured when they say we have coverage for third party . is that why they own property.

are there full time employees on salaries or is it volunteer work.  dumb questions but i have no idea how they operate.

 

[facthunter]

I've never advocated trying to make any Little plane into a replica airliner.  I LIKE basic aircraft as a recreational tool. I try to keep all Talk" simple. Don't categorise people. I've even said that little planes require more skill  especially in windy conditions.  IF they( RAAus), won't allow low flying to be taught to  any one who doesn't muster cattle that's what I mean by "dumbing down"  Plenty of accidents I hear of I think IF ONLY the pilot had been taught more about what got him and often the unsuspecting passenger as well. Your "Certificate" is the bare minimum to let you loose and carefully build more skills.  Nev ..

[spacesailor]

Some of us are way behind the ' education level ' required by the buearocrasy! .

Flying takes a lot of coordination . Basic flying around a circuit,  or farm stip , surely dosn't require the Nav or passenger endorsement certificates. 

So why have to pass All those extra tests just to get to ' solo ' status.. 

extra training means , ' extra dollars '  for the flight school .

BUT  at the expence of students dropping out ! , in that ' too expensive ' hobby .

spacesailor

 

 

[RossK]

11 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Basic flying around a circuit,  or farm stip , surely dosn't require the Nav or passenger endorsement certificates. 

So why have to pass All those extra tests just to get to ' solo ' status.. 

You don't have to pass all those extra test.

You can get a basic RPC without Nav or Passenger endorsements and then just stay within 25nm of the airfield, simple. 

If you do your lessons frequently it can reduce the cost also.

My RPC was $4620, 15 hours dual, 12 hours solo. I was doing at least 2 lessons a week.

It can be done in less, 20 hours is all thats required, 15 dual, 5 Solo.

[kasper]

On 13/03/2023 at 10:36 AM, farri said:

Hi trailer, I`m pleased you`ve raised the subject! Just a bit about me for those who don`t know me!

 

I started flying Ultralight aircraft, 40 years ago, in the early days of the Australian Ultralight Federation (A.U.F.), now Recreational Aviation Australia (R.A.A.)! I`ve been a paid-up member for all those years and remain current. I worked my way up to AUF, CFI, rating and ran my own, C.A.A. and A.U.F, approved flying school, off my property, for 12 years, before retiring from instructing, several years ago! I turned 75 years of age on the first of January, this year! I still fly my Drifter, regularly and take passengers with me.

 

Yes! I have noticed the loss of R.A.A. flying schools and there are numerous reasons for this! The R.A.A is no longer what the A.U.F. was, intended to be! in my opinion, R.A.A. is heading to be the new GA, if it isn`t, already.  

It`s some of both of those things! here is just a section of the R.A.A. current operations manual, for the requirements of obtaining a, instructor rating, then there is, Senior and finally! C.F.I. rating! that may allow you to establish your own Flight Training Facility, so, hopefully, one day, you will get back the $$$$$ spent on obtaining the certificates.  

 

Copied from R.A.A. ops manual 7.1.1

SECTION 2.08 INSTRUCTOR RATING – GROUP A AND B. fly the aeroplane accurately and safely in each sequence to the standards set out in the RAAus Syllabus of Flight Training.

 

AERONAUTICAL EXPERIENCE 4. Prior to undertaking an in-flight examination for the issue of an Instructor Rating, an applicant must: a. have completed the RAAus Instructor Training Course or an approved equivalent, that includes:

 

(i) a minimum of 20 hours dual in-flight instruction in a recreational aeroplane of the same Group; and

 

(ii) a minimum of 30 hours ground instruction, which includes the PMI course required by Subparagraph 1.(d) of this Section and practice formal briefings; and

 

(iii) a minimum of 5 hours of the in-flight instruction required under subparagraph 4.(a) (i) of this Section must be completed with a CFI or PE approved by the Head of Flight Operations as an Instructor Trainer (IT). The remainder of the in-flight instruction may be completed by a Senior Instructor, (who has been approved by the Head of Flight Operations), acting under the IT; and b. have a minimum of 100 hours as pilot-in-command of recreational aeroplane in the same Aeroplane Group for which the rating is sought; or c. if having recognised flight time as a Pilot or Instructor from a recognised organisation other than RAAus, satisfy the requirements of Section 2.13 Paragraphs 8 and 9 of this manual.

 

Franco!

Ps, Ok Guys! hands up, those who want to become an R.A.A. instructors?

 

Been there - AUF instructor in the 90's and no thank you to being an RAAus instructor these days.

 

The sad bit I find is that is that I was AUF L2 and Senior Instructor in my spare time in my 30's as a joy that came from flying ultralights and sharing that with others meant I wanted to do it.

 

RAAus over the yeas really killed off the joy with becoming GA so today I do neither for the 'Association' or its members.

And as I head towards my late 50's and have more time to enjoy passions I have absolutely no interest in going back towards RAAus. 

[facthunter]

Yes, you can't wait forever and keep hoping. At one stage we looked to be ahead of the game.  Expecting the rules to be brought in I ended up losing a lot of money I couldn't afford to because they backpedalled  and reneged.  (CASA) I'm over it. They don't give a stuff about the Humans in the system or use the resources of the members. It's definitely not like it was. .   Nev

[spacesailor]

" you don't have to pass all those " 

On my basic test there was questions from (  as I see it ) G A ,

But what got to me was that question on ' icing ' , & the answer had nothing to do with ' tempreture ' .

Which makes Darwin deadly for icing ! Yet Mcmurdo Valley Antartica would have no ' icing ' problems., 

As there's NO MOISTURE in the air .

From a ultralight point of view,  the answer was for BIG high flying commercial jumbo jets .

Nothing for our learning ' carburetor venturi icing ' . My total hours of dual training ! ,  I think was 30 hours .

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

I can't see how the answer was for Big high flying commercial jets which have little problem with icing bar using more fuel when the icing is on. GA HAVE to deal with it more basically by avoiding icing conditions as none of them are "certified" to fly in icing conditions, so you should know what affects you in the GA environment. GA planes still get into a lot of trouble with icing  especially with carburetted engines. I don't think you can claim you were hard done by as it's essential Knowledge.  Nev

[spacesailor]

MOISTURE IN THE AIR .

not very aviation orintated,

But I accept it is ' scientifically ' correct .

But without a tempreature part, not much good , outside classrooms.

spacesailor

[facthunter]

You're on thin ice there, Spacey. Know anything about supercooled water drops and Hail out of Cb cloud 20 miles from it?  Nev

[Roundsounds]

Having started, run and sold a successful flying school I can assure you it’s not as profitable as the hourly rate x hours might appear. The various overheads associated with any small business are there, once you factor in financing airplanes and maintenance costs to keep the machines in a serviceable / presentable state it’s a tough game. I’ve been approached a few times since selling the school to set up new ventures. Once you run the numbers it’s not worth the effort, it would simply be an expensive hobby. 

[facthunter]

I was approached with Backers a few times, but the AUTHORITY is not really user friendly OR very predictable and every operator I know hates working under them. Most stay there because that's the Game they know, but you certainly would not do it for the money or peace of mind. The satisfying part is some of the people. If you have a good local scene get behind it and keep it going IF you are plugging away on your own, I don't know how you keep it up. You'd need plenty of fortitude.  Nev

[Roundsounds]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

I was approached with Backers a few times, but the AUTHORITY is not really user friendly OR very predictable and every operator I know hates working under them. Most stay there because that's the Game they know, but you certainly would not do it for the money or peace of mind. The satisfying part is some of the people. If you have a good local scene get behind it and keep it going IF you are plugging away on your own, I don't know how you keep it up. You'd need plenty of fortitude.  Nev

Dealing with the CASA frontline staff was never an issue. It’s the day to day business side of things and the idiotic “regulation reform” (ie bureaucratic BS) that makes running a school not worth the effort. 
The customers are usually the reason you keep at it and being a line instructor would be ok. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Roundsounds

[BrendAn]

11 hours ago, RossK said:

You don't have to pass all those extra test.

You can get a basic RPC without Nav or Passenger endorsements and then just stay within 25nm of the airfield, simple. 

If you do your lessons frequently it can reduce the cost also.

My RPC was $4620, 15 hours dual, 12 hours solo. I was doing at least 2 lessons a week.

It can be done in less, 20 hours is all thats required, 15 dual, 5 Solo.

That must have a while ago for that price.