SAAA expels Peter Leonard

[KRviator]

Got this in my email tonight and as I've not heard anything about goings-on it made me wonder just what you have to do to be expelled from the SAAA - particularly as Peter was awarded life membership a couple years ago...Peter was one of the trainers at my MPC a few years ago, and beyond his correspondence when he was up for election to the SAAA executive, I've not heard from him since, nor anything bad about him.

"Very serious" breaches brings a lot of possibilities to mind, and I for one, would have thought it would put an end to speculation if the SAAA executive laid out exactly what he was found guilty of, that is so serious.

Edited March 13, 2023 by KRviator

[jackc]

Probably secret squirrel stuff by the organisation?  Time may tell? He should get a chance to tell his side of the story?

[kgwilson]

Expulsion is the most severe punishment for any individual from an Association. In NSW incorporated associations must have the full process specified in their constitution.

 

Most state the committee must act on any complaint about a member and may expel the member for a number of specified reasons. But the person expelled must be given the right to appeal the decision (within a defined period) which must be held at a General meeting of all members. The decision is only upheld if a simple majority of members present vote in favour by secret ballot. Of course if the person expelled does not appeal the decision, no meeting is required & the expulsion is final.

 

If the expulsion was for something like misappropriation of funds and there is no dispute, it is unlikely the person expelled will publish his side of events.

Edited March 13, 2023 by kgwilson

[facthunter]

"Life" membership can have a short life. IF the affected person feels aggrieved there should be a process to  cover that in the constitution. Nev

[old man emu]

In New South Wales, the Dept of Fair Trading has been extremely helpful towards organisations wanting to associated under the relevant legislation. To assist those organisations adopt a constitution, the Dept. has gone through every paragraph of Act and written a draft constitution that covers every line of the Act. All an organisation has to do is run a "Find and Replace" through the template document to insert the organisation's name to make the an approved constitution. Since all the work was done by the Dept. there are no mistakes and it is accepted without review during the registration process.

 

Things like the expulsion of members is dealt with, taking into account all natural Rights we expect to have.

[Yenn]

I am surprised. Peter has been a very important member of SAAA and I am sure it will be hard to find anyone more enthusiastic than him.  

[walrus]

reading between the lines of the latest email, it appears that the issue may have been to do with alleged contravention of the Act. in relation to use of confidential information in some dispute this apparently leaves little room for the Directors to move.....but I don't know.

 

 

[jackc]

It could be alleged that the organisation’s  database was used by the accused to send out emails by himself to solicit votes to his possible personal advantage.  I did receive one such email, being a member of the organisation.

[facthunter]

Don't know enough details to comment except everyone should be able to have something like an equal opportunity to inform people who you wish to have vote for you in an election, on matters affecting your candidature.  Nev

[jackc]

Enclosed pre filled in voting papers acceptable?

[facthunter]

He hasn't got your arm twisted up your back making you use them.  YOU can usually allow someone to fill out your voting paper if you are happy with it and not coerced. I don't know the DETAILS. The voting is usually by secret ballot and if that principle is preserved that is MOST important.. Nev

Edited March 31, 2023 by facthunter

[jackc]

21 minutes ago, facthunter said:

He hasn't got your arm twisted up your back making you use them.  YOU can usually allow someone to fill out your voting paper if you are happy with it and not coerced. I don't know the DETAILS. The voting is usually by secret ballot and if that principle is preserved that is MOST important.. Nev

No, but when you are not privy to everything as a member because I am a newbie, I sought advice from a learned member I know.  I was advised dont do it…….Now I have nothing against the guy in question……I don't know him.

But I had the impression a bushfire was burning, but I did not know why, or where? 

I have been mired in this sort of stuff before and It can be debilitating.  Gee all I want to do is have fun and fly aircraft……thats it!

!   No wonder I want to rip off my rego numbers, run my membership through a shredder,  appoint YouTube as my new CFI and turn into a flying hermit 🙂  Organisational Wars are not my thing, too old for it. 

[rodgerc]

Notwithstanding the legalities, Peter Leonard is a true gentleman and an exceptional supporter of and asset to, the Australian experimental aircraft community. The SAAA will undoubtedly be a poorer organisation as a result of the action on multiple fronts. 

[old man emu]

23 hours ago, walrus said:

the issue may have been to do with alleged contravention of the Act.

Which Act and how was it possibly contravened? All I've seen in this thread are vague statements that this bloke may or may not have done something and that the powers that be have given him the bum's rush.

 

I'd like someone to have a go at posting some details, or is it case that if I was told, I'd have to be shot?

[walrus]

OME, I think the lawyer mentioned S58 of the Act which has to do with confidential information being membership data or suchlike.

 

‘’I don’t want to get involved in law fair or organisational fights, been there and will not do it again.

 

‘’As for the Board, their hands may have been tied by the Act and they may not have had any good options and this was the least worse.

 

‘’Our ski club board had something happen once and our Boards legal advice was that they HAD to take action, else members could pursue them in court. I wonder if the SAAA Board were in the same position?

[jackc]

7 hours ago, old man emu said:

Which Act and how was it possibly contravened? All I've seen in this thread are vague statements that this bloke may or may not have done something and that the powers that be have given him the bum's rush.

 

I'd like someone to have a go at posting some details, or is it case that if I was told, I'd have to be shot?

Many are probably privy to details and don't want to publish  specifics as they could end up in legal trouble?  Its not hard to end up with a writ hanging around your neck, these days……. 😞 o

[turboplanner]

On 14/03/2023 at 1:29 PM, old man emu said:

In New South Wales, the Dept of Fair Trading has been extremely helpful towards organisations wanting to associated under the relevant legislation. To assist those organisations adopt a constitution, the Dept. has gone through every paragraph of Act and written a draft constitution that covers every line of the Act. All an organisation has to do is run a "Find and Replace" through the template document to insert the organisation's name to make the an approved constitution. Since all the work was done by the Dept. there are no mistakes and it is accepted without review during the registration process.

 

Things like the expulsion of members is dealt with, taking into account all natural Rights we expect to have.

In the case of Recreational Aviation Australia Inc, it operated under the ACT Department of Justice, and on a quick check would now operated under Acess Canberra which suggests these basic Model Rules. https://files.accesscanberra.act.gov.au/legacy/2303/Associations model rules.pdf

 

Note that they include compliance and enforcement and natural justice to carry out the responsibilities of self administration. The Model Rules are the starting point and from there you write rules which suit flying, shooting, or whatever activity you are setting up. The finished Rules are usually a lot bigger than the skeleton Model Rules.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Many are probably privy to details and don't want to publish  specifics as they could end up in legal trouble?  Its not hard to end up with a writ hanging around your neck, these days……. 😞 o

Depends on the situation; If a person is on the Committee of Management (Board of Management in the old RAA INC.) he/she is expected to have certain powers and access to the material he/she manages. Within the State Tribunal system, in a VCAT Hearing our Secretary was ill and asked me to present our case as Vice President. The developer's Barrister stood up at the beginning of proceedings and asked the President to disqualify me because I wasn't authorised to speak. The President said he would get advice and make a decision during the morning break, then came back and said I could present because it had been decided that as an Association Official, I was authorised to approve myself to present. I'm not saying that applies across the board or outside a CAT, just that its an example that Association officials can do certain things.

[facthunter]

What would matter most is what Peter would want to be done.  (IF anything). You can't beat City Hall.  Nev.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I'd sure like to hear more, in particular his side of the story.

[Jabiru7252]

As a long time member of "Sex without Partners" I have witnessed many members being expelled for breaking the rules. 🤪

[coljones]

Most organisations are subject to laws/rules that provide access to the membership register (in some way or other).  Expulsion can, sometimes, be a bastard act of executive tyranny or an act of organisational self preservation.

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, coljones said:

Most organisations are subject to laws/rules that provide access to the membership register (in some way or other).  Expulsion can, sometimes, be a bastard act of executive tyranny or an act of organisational self preservation.

Yes, important to know the full details before even discussing it; I've seen both and they are about the most emotional things you'll get involved in, in sporting activitiy. Associations often atttract the people who never made it as company executives. In one Association I was involved with the President, an imposing woman who was a pensioner, ruled with an iron fist. There was a Committee of Management, but she always got what she wanted. At State level, the things we wanted to see had always occurred at the race meeting before, or a race meeting after we were there etc. One day an official had to pick up something from her home. She invited him in for a cup of coffee. Looking at the magnificant fridge-freezer in the kitchen, he said "Nice freezer, Madge (not her name) how much did that cost. "Nothing" replied Madge, the Association paid for that. The Association had also paid for new beds, new car, house repairs so Madge had to be expelled and got to spend some time in prison.

 

In another case the members were not happy with the committee members so decided to vote them out at a meeting and replace them. The members chosen to organise it were inexperienced, so publicly announced the purpose of the meeting publicly. One of the committee did a mail out to all members seeking proxy votes and on the day the committee swamped the member votes.

 

I'd suggest in this case, what happened within SAAA is not something we should be talking about.

[kgwilson]

Proxy votes in any contested issue are fraught with possible problems. Members get coerced in to making a proxy vote on an issue they know little or nothing about often with devastating consequences. In NSW the Associatoons Incorporation Act was changed in 2009 and made proxy voting illegal unless specifically detailed in the constitution. Most organisations no longer have proxy voting so you must attend a meeting and vote personally.

[facthunter]

Proxy votes generally can't be secret. Having them all embracing is one way or a directed vote can exercise the Original members wishes if it's for a member who cannot be present for some reason.  Nev