Crazy aircraft prices

[jackc]

I got into a scrap with a broker over dishonest advertising in part by a vendor who handled  the truth loosely. But the broker said they all do it that way. 

[Marty_d]

That doesn't sound like a valid excuse to me.

[Blueadventures]

8 hours ago, old man emu said:

Oh No! Spacey's gunna get into the air!

Let us know in advance so we can get the fire trucks to form a water cannon arch over the taxi way:)

[kasper]

17 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Let us know in advance so we can get the fire trucks to form a water cannon arch over the taxi way:)

Don’t do that - it’s open cockpit and it would be a bit nippy in winter

[johnm]

12 hours ago, jackc said:

I got into a scrap with a broker over dishonest advertising in part by a vendor who handled  the truth loosely. But the broker said they all do it that way. 

its not they are liars ................... they are just strangers to the truth

[KRviator]

Here's two great examples - and I mean no disrespect to the sellers - if someone actually wants to pay such big bikkies, take their money!

VH-SMJ, a rather nice Comanche was sold in November 2020 for $139,000. Two years later, it's for sale again. For $225,000! A 62% increase in two and a smidge years. Could be why it hasn't sold for the many months it's been listed...

 

VH-VVT a Turbo 210 sold a couple of months ago for $119,000. It's now listed for sale for $165,000 A 33% increase in 12 weeks! And apart from having its' annual inspection done, from what I can see, there's been nothing else completed - according to the logs, it hasn't flown in nearly two years  and only 15 the year before- that's what put me off it, along with the engine being beyond TBO. If it was being regularly flown, she'd probably still be decently priced, but not at $165K! 

Coupled with the Van's issues, you might see RV prices on the up and up too in the year ahead... Realestate? Pfft. Invest in a plane!

 

[rgmwa]

If and when Vans sort out their business issues and hopefully they will, I wouldn't be surprised to see the price of RV kits increase by 20%-30%.

[440032]

I got this the other day from a friend in USA who sold his Cherokee about a year ago for about 67K USD, and bought a little homebuilt for about 10 or 12.

 

I had some texts with my friend X….. He says here the aviation bubble has burst… Airplane sales are grinding to a halt… He said if I was selling my Cherokee today, I could only get 50 grand for it and it would take 6 months to sell it….  People wanting to upgrade to a better airplane are not selling theirs because there are not enough planes on the market now.

The broker that sold my Cherokee for me, he basically has nothing to sell now. He is selling homebuilt projects for people or at least trying to… I saw a project he was trying to sell…. Total junk if you ask me…. X has been a broker forever, very successful. Sold a lot of corporate type aircraft, heavy and light twins, fast singles,,,That was most of his business… Now he is dabbling in homebuilts, but, really mostly projects that are junk….

[KRviator]

12 hours ago, rgmwa said:

If and when Vans sort out their business issues and hopefully they will, I wouldn't be surprised to see the price of RV kits increase by 20%-30%.

Personally, I can't see Van's going anywhere - they offer something no one else does, a (relatively) affordable Meccano set that can take you from Brisbane to Townsville in 4 hours that you can build in your back shed. When I brought the engine for my -9, the dollar was pretty much at parity with the USD, and the entire cost was $30,000 including GST & shipping. For a factory-new engine. The current price for a new O-320 from Vans is now $39,150USD or $62,000. Plus shipping, plus GST and you're upto well over $70K for an engine, or more than double what I paid.

IF you want an RV going forwards, unless you can already afford to buy a Cirrus, you might have to be content with a standard kit, a well and truly used engine and basic VFR instruments...

Edited October 31, 2023 by KRviator

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, KRviator said:

Personally, I can't see Van's going anywhere - they offer something no one else does, a (relatively) affordable Meccano set that can take you from Brisbane to Townsville in 4 hours that you can build in your back shed. When I brought the engine for my -9, the dollar was pretty much at parity with the USD, and the entire cost was $30,000 including GST & shipping. For a factory-new engine. The current price for a new O-320 from Vans is now $39,150USD or $62,000. Plus shipping, plus GST and you're upto well over $70K for an engine, or more than double what I paid.

IF you want an RV going forwards, unless you can already afford to buy a Cirrus, you might have to be content with a standard kit, a well and truly used engine and basic VFR instruments...

There are other "Meccano sets" - possibly the next well know is Sonex. Fitted with a suitable engine - almost RV performance at lower cost.

[rgmwa]

Yes, traditionally homebuilt aircraft were a collection of new and used parts put together as a cheap way of getting a generally low performance aircraft on a small budget. Over the years companies like Vans have enabled builders to construct brand new high performance aircraft that can out-perform many commercial aircraft. With rising costs the wheel may turn and force many builders to go back to more basic designs and used components. 
I think Vans will get out of their troubles but the question is what will happen to the current employee ownership model and who will control the future direction of the company. There are probably plenty of Chinese investors with deep pockets who would be interested.

[skippydiesel]

 Hp for Hp composite aircraft, can & do, offer the potential for better performance, lower noise, negligible corrosion issues (lower maintenance effort/ cost) than metal,  however they unusually come at a higher comparative kit cost , due to mostly being very advanced factory made modular components, rather than a Meccano flat pack.

Edited November 1, 2023 by skippydiesel

[RossK]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 Hp for Hp composite aircraft, can & do, offer the potential for better performance, lower noise, negligible corrosion issues (lower maintenance effort/ cost) than metal,  however they unusually come at a higher comparative kit cost , due to mostly being very advanced factory made modular components, rather than a Meccano flat pack.

Compare 2 kits: Vans RV14 vs a Glasair G2 from Advanced Aero.

Both can be optioned with the IO-390 and performance specs are pretty similar for Speed, Economy and Usable Load.

Vans RV14 Kit cost was US$50,550

Glasair G2 Kit cost was $114,995 - Quickbuild option only though.

Kits do not include the engine, prop, avionics, upholstery, wiring or paint.

If you add another $20K for the Vans Quickbuild wing and fuselage option, it still makes the RV14 significantly cheaper.

Their current situation suggests it was too cheap.

[skippydiesel]

RossK

 

 RV 14 V Glasair G2

 

Wikipedia has the performance of the G2 way ahead of the RV - please explain?

 

I think the costing pretty much supports my observations of metal v composite (as does the Wikipediae  performance data)

[skippydiesel]

On 15/06/2023 at 6:28 PM, jackc said:

I got into a scrap with a broker over dishonest advertising in part by a vendor who handled  the truth loosely. But the broker said they all do it that way. 

I came close to doing a deal with a broker - thank whichever deity you patronise,  the owner pulled the aircraft from sale at the last fence. The dealer (whom I never met in person) has left a stink of unethical behaviour, that I am unlikly to forget.

 

On the basis of the one very unpleasant contact - If at all possible avoid aircraft dealers.

[RossK]

38 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Wikipedia has the performance of the G2 way ahead of the RV - please explain?

I think the costing pretty much supports my observations of metal v composite (as does the Wikipediae  performance data)

From the manufacturers websites, not wiki.

Both list Cruise at 75% @ 8000ft

Glasair G2 - 192kt

RV14 - 170kt

( It's also refelected in the Stall speed, 46kt for the RV14 vs 62kt for the G2, I'm sure you'd agree that a low stall speed is better 😉 )

Advantage to the composite, but for those looking for a fast, economical cross country machine, they are pretty comparable in my book.

And I agree with your observations on costings with metal vs composite, the question for the homebuilder is;

Is that 22kt worth and extra US$62,000? Sales figures suggest not. But Vans have obviously been selling too cheaply.

 

IMHO Vans are a victim of their own success. Accepted orders beyond their capacity to produce with locked in prices. Not too disimilar to the home builders here in Aus that have gone kaput with lock in contracts and 2 year lead times .

[spacesailor]

Crazy prices .

A " Hummel  " Full kit ,top price is under $A 30,000 . AND about the same dollars for the firewall forward. 

BUT The second hand price is none existent. 

spacesailor

 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, RossK said:

From the manufacturers websites, not wiki.

Both list Cruise at 75% @ 8000ft

Glasair G2 - 192kt

RV14 - 170kt

( It's also refelected in the Stall speed, 46kt for the RV14 vs 62kt for the G2, I'm sure you'd agree that a low stall speed is better 😉 )

Advantage to the composite, but for those looking for a fast, economical cross country machine, they are pretty comparable in my book.

And I agree with your observations on costings with metal vs composite, the question for the homebuilder is;

Is that 22kt worth and extra US$62,000? Sales figures suggest not. But Vans have obviously been selling too cheaply.

 

IMHO Vans are a victim of their own success. Accepted orders beyond their capacity to produce with locked in prices. Not too disimilar to the home builders here in Aus that have gone kaput with lock in contracts and 2 year lead times .

He who believes the manufactures performance claims is likely to be disappointed (in most cases, not all).

 

A 22 Knot better  cruise at the same power/fuel consumption, is substantial in my book - will get you further/L and if memory serves the G2 carries way more fuel - so double benefit when on a trip.

 

Yes I do agree,  stall speed is very important, particularly when the fan stops.

 

As one who must watch the dollars (going out) extra carefully, I would agree that the $62K does not seem worth the extra few knots/endurance  and $62K will buy a heap of fuel for the RV14. I have not researched the two aircraft and the G2 may have other attractive features (higher wing loading/more comfortable in turbulence?  cockpit dimensions/comfort? etc)

 

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

RossK

 

 RV 14 V Glasair G2

 

Wikipedia has the performance of the G2 way ahead of the RV - please explain?

 

I think the costing pretty much supports my observations of metal v composite (as does the Wikipediae  performance data)

I can't speak for Wikipedia, but in Wikitree anyone can input information. They're expected to note the source of the information, but not everyone does. Wikitree owns the information that's inputted so they can decide what's right or what's wrong, but the question is how. People can get their facts wrong, people can input their own bias, people can tell their own version of the story.  Wikipedia is a good quick reference, but always double check the facts if the information is important to you.

[MattP]

As someone who's had a kit on their bucket list for a long time - looking at prices over the last decade I woudn't say Vans (or a similar Glasair / Sling kit) = cheaper than something else. Its really the only way I see myself considering being able to pretend I can afford a new aircraft. Comparing an RV10 to a new build SR22, you're still coming out just over 1/2 price - although on the used market the SR22 will be considerably more valuable for longer (based on what I have seen of the 2nd hand kit prices). A Sling 4 TSI is about 60% of the cost of a new SR20, and the ability to spread your payments out over a longer time and have the experience (if you're into that) of building is also a plus in my book.

 

I'm kicking myself I said no to a 172 SP for 100k about 10 years ago when we had near $ parity with the US, which would now be worth 300k based on a quick look at planesales. Bugger! 

 

I don't agree Vans is "too big to fail" etc. they're a business just like anything else, although I would like to think someone sees that its a viable business that is very capable of being profitable.

[sfGnome]

15 hours ago, MattP said:

I would like to think someone sees that its a viable business that is very capable of being profitable

It all depends on what someone sees as ‘profitable’. My guess is that the current owners would be happy with sufficient profit to maintain their passion, whereas an investor will want real profit.