Rotax 916is

[danny_galaga]

https://bydanjohnson.com/mosaic-ready-powerplant-brp-rotax-surprises-sun-n-fun-with-a-powerful-new-announcement/

[Carbon Canary]

First the Cub and now the VL3 powered by a 916is.

 

VL3 claiming 2700fpm climb rate as a result.

 

Launched at Friedrichshafen.

[Thruster88]

Would love to see this engine in a premium jabiru factory aircraft. At 60-80k over the standard 120hp model I think they would sell very well to buyers who are not going to consider the current product. A mini cirrus at a bargain price.

[facthunter]

I don't like the concept of upping the original  engines output by so much. It rarely works well. Military rated engines have much shorter lives than the same engines used  de rated in civil use.  .  Engine weight is what matters not displacement. What about complexity? In a big place like Australia ? It's not like Europe where you're never far away from help by the experts.    Nev

[spenaroo]

 

14 hours ago, facthunter said:

I don't like the concept of upping the original  engines output by so much. It rarely works well. Military rated engines have much shorter lives than the same engines used  de rated in civil use.  .  Engine weight is what matters not displacement. What about complexity? In a big place like Australia ? It's not like Europe where you're never far away from help by the experts.    Nev

true.... but this is Rotax
the same people who have a 60HP and a 90HP engine in the seadoo spark jetski they call the (900 ace).
the difference between the two engine options... a simple ECU flash

[facthunter]

I don't believe in a magic NAME. RR Merlins weren't registered for civil use in most Countries. My highest number of engine failures was with  P&Ws run by a major carrier.  Nev

[spenaroo]

was more to do with the marketing and way they sell the products.
but my experience is with the powersports market.

not uncommon for engines to have year on year performance gains. simply from different mapping of the ECU.
of course there is always new materials and changes to the internals. with different piston, camshaft and crank design.

(sometimes the engines are making the same power or slightly less then previously, but actually improved figures. as new emission's regulations cost HP)

I assume the same evolutionary gains they find in the aircraft market can just be sold as the next model up.
what a great business model selling engines by power rating.
 

At some point the question is how much power can the cases take?
 

Edited April 20, 2023 by spenaroo

[Carbon Canary]

I note the 916is also has a 2000 hr TBO

[kgwilson]

The price of a new 916is is $US49,500.00, thats $AU73,832.00 at todays conversion rate. I can't see too many being installed here. The buy price today (AUD or USD) is around $75,000.00, then there is freight & duties. Then it has to be installed. I reckon the final cost would be about $90,000.00, not that far short of a brand new base level Jabiru 230.

[facthunter]

How that is determined changes wherever it's done. It normally comes out low (conservative) and increases (if deserved) based on how it performs in service. It can also be reduced or have mandated inspections.  The geared Cont 0-300 had a reduced life as it operated at higher revs.  Acrobatic aircraft have pretty flexlble overhaul/strip times.   Nev

[rgmwa]

17 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The price of a new 916is is $US49,500.00,

That should keep Lycoming in business for a while longer. Vans will sell you a 160hp Lycoming for US$35-$38k.

[facthunter]

You get  the BEST deal that way/  Nev

[danny_galaga]

1 hour ago, rgmwa said:

That should keep Lycoming in business for a while longer. Vans will sell you a 160hp Lycoming for US$35-$38k.

In the long run, which has higher servicing costs? What's the TBO for the Lycoming?

[facthunter]

Depends on the Model. Usually above 2,000 hours. Lycoming like to get the older repaired stuff out of the sky. There was a lot of chromed cylinders about at one time. Some cylinders are nitrided and the crankshafts are. .  There's some clones that may have different reliability. .  Nev

[onetrack]

I think lot of us are unaware of the massive strides made in the engineering fields as regards automotive engine internal designs and materials in the last 30 years. The changes are subtle but constant.

 

1. There has been a massive concerted effort to reduce friction inside modern engines. The efforts have been led by advanced computerised design and calculations.

The newest lower-friction engine designs have been aided by a wide range of new oil additives, which are being produced regularly. These new oil additives aid in increased power output.

 

2. Along with the above, there have been major advances in reducing the weight of reciprocating components. Small gains here add up to lower stresses and lower bearing loads.

Once again, computerisation with major new design programmes have led to the ability to produce improved results that formerly took years of redesign and testing.

 

3. Major advances in metal coatings has led to substantially lower levels of friction. New piston coatings and Diamond-like Carbon coatings (DLC's) have led to much slippierer pistons, and the DLC coatings have vastly increased the life of sliding components such as valves, and injectors.

 

4. Subtle changes to engine designs such as offset cylinders, new alloys, and processes such as sintered metal alloys, fibre-reinforced metals, new low-friction ring designs, and even major improvements to induction designs have all led to modern engines becoming a lot more powerful for their size, with no decrease in lifespan.

The simple fact remains that automotive engine design has improved so much in the last 30 or so years, that most engine reconditioners have disappeared, and vehicles die from electrical failure today, rather than engine failure, as it used to be.

 

Meantimes, most of the aviation engine industry still lives in the 1960's as regards design and technological improvements.

[kgwilson]

The Lycoming is a bit heavier at 268 lbs compared to the Rotax at 190 lbs but that doesn't include the oil tank, radiator, hoses or liquid coolant. TBO is 2000 hours for the io-320 A,B,D,E & F models & 1800 for the C model. Of course the Lycoming is 5.42 litres whereas the Rotax is 1.35 litres in cubic capacity.

Edited April 20, 2023 by kgwilson

[skippydiesel]

LyCon promoters - don't forget the likely lower fuel consumption/hp/hr of the Rotax and I assume its good to burn ULP.

 

What is its oil change interval/quantity?

[facthunter]

These older tech motors have had metallurgical up grades. Their case materials and head metals are as good as anything about. Easy to trouble shoot, and service.  Some don't even need oil coolers.  Power to weight isn't much different. No coolant to worry about.  You manually lean the mixture . Better than the supposedly  alt compensated BING and the CARBY (one) is beneath the motor.  I'd prefer the injected motors with Gami injectors.  Nev

Edited April 20, 2023 by facthunter

[kgwilson]

17 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

LyCon promoters - don't forget the likely lower fuel consumption/hp/hr of the Rotax and I assume its good to burn ULP.

 

What is its oil change interval/quantity?

There is no doubt that the 916 will be far more fuel efficient and use ULP. While Rotax quality is very high the real issue is the exhorbitant cost of everything Rotax makes.

[facthunter]

Wet sump easy to  drain .Not a large amount ot oil. Camshaft  up the top of the engine and doesn't like sitting for long intervals .Use the aeroshell 100 PLUS. The PLUS is a Lyc. additive. 45 mins in the air to reach full op temp. 6 cyl motors are much smoother but you need the BIG ones to be there. Nev

[spenaroo]

Interesting to see the engine life,

for comparison sake. a Sea-doo jet-ski (rotax powered) is built to last about 10 years, used for around 30-50 hours a year.
so expected engine life is only 300-500 hours.

Ducati from my experience was expected to get to 90k Kms before pistons need replacing,
Harley Davidson was 90k Kms before the crank needed replacing.
so lets say, the average speed is 80km/h (highway driving). then thats about 1125 hours.

Edited April 20, 2023 by spenaroo

[danny_galaga]

13 minutes ago, spenaroo said:

Interesting to see the engine life,

for comparison sake. a Sea-doo jet-ski (rotax powered) is built to last about 10 years, used for around 30-50 hours a year.
so expected engine life is only 300-500 hours.

Ducati from my experience was expected to get to 90k Kms before pistons need replacing,
Harley Davidson was 90k Kms before the crank needed replacing.
so lets say, the average speed is 80km/h (highway driving). then thats about 1125 hours.

Or thousands more hours for anything that isn't Ducati or Harley 😀

[spenaroo]

true, but the Harleys are known for the low stressed air cooled engines - seen as using old technology,
though the Ducati's I worked with were mostly water cooled performance oriented - using the newest technology.

thought it was a good comparison to the aircraft engine options

Id expect a jap bike to get at the minimum double the life - though they rarely see high mileage. seeing anything with over 100k Kms is rare.
people just don't keep them that long. or see the value in maintenance.
I have heard the legends of 500K km+ bikes in the 80's/90's when motorcycle couriers were still a thing.

which does ask the question, outside of flying clubs, farm use and flight schools. how many privately owned jabirus for example have 300+ hours?

Edited April 20, 2023 by spenaroo

[Thruster88]

5 hours ago, kgwilson said:

The price of a new 916is is $US49,500.00, thats $AU73,832.00 at todays conversion rate. I can't see too many being installed here. The buy price today (AUD or USD) is around $75,000.00, then there is freight & duties. Then it has to be installed. I reckon the final cost would be about $90,000.00, not that far short of a brand new base level Jabiru 230.

Kevins figures above were in response to my thoughts of a jabiru premium model using a Rotax 916.

 

The mid spec jabiru 230 is $164600 add $9000 for adsb transponder and $9500 for the autopilot = $183100. If we take off 20K for the gen4 and add 70k (I am sure they would get oem price) we have our premium jabiru 230 for $233100. Not a lot of money today for a very good aircraft with a very good engine. Only a 915 would be be required for our premium model as we are not chasing takeoff performance just cruise at altitude.

 

Sling and others are showing what can be done with these engines.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Crikey Jabiru 230 prices have increased a lot since I last looked. That was when they were around 120K.