On fuel bulk storage, getting clean fuel and so on.

[old man emu]

Mogas or Avgas storage.

 

These two liquids are potentially dangerous. Therefore each State sets its own rules on how much petrol can be stored in enclosed spaces, or outside. The rules also dictate the way in which storages (drums, tanks etc) are constructed. Then there is the question of decomposition if stored fuel and the effects of decomposition on engine performance.

 

It's a wide field for discussion, so go for it.

[kgwilson]

98 ULP will go off within about 4 -5 weeks when stored in a vehicle fuel tank that is not full. The light components (aromatics) will evaporate off and result in slight lift in octane but will result in more difficult starting and overheating especially in high revving engines. BP conducted a study on this more than 10 years ago.

 

BUT if 98 octane is stored in a full or nearly full container and well sealed it will last for many months. The aromatics will not be able to evaporate off and the fuel will age slowly.

 

There is a simple solution to the problem of 98 octane fuel stored in a vehicle fuel tank that is nowhere near full. Simply put some fresh fuel in before trying to start the engine after more than 5 weeks. You do not need much.

 

My main tank in my aircraft holds 100 litres. My personal minimum is 20 litres or approx 1 hours running and I always top up before the next flight with fresh fuel. If all I wanted to do was to rejuvenate the say 20 litres of 6 week old depleted fuel all I would need would be a couple of litres of fresh fuel. The more fuel in the tank the longer it will last as evaporation will be slower.

 

If the fuel has been in the tank for 12 months then just increase the amount of fresh you put in after first ensuring the delivery system to carb/injector system etc is clean and the fuel still flows well. If there was 20 litres left in the tank I'd add at least 20 litres. If the vehicle is an aircraft though I'd drain the tank & put the fuel in my car.

[walrus]

 

Do NOT let fuel sit and evaporate in carburettor float bowls, run the engine bone dry with the fuel off. Anyone who has had to clean out a small motor carb will know this.

 

See images at https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2020/aair/ao-2020-065

 

 

 

Apart from that, full tanks to minimise opportunities for condensation.

 

 

Then this:

 

Quote

Petrol in sealed containers.

The storage life of petrol is one year when stored under shelter in a sealed container. Once a seal is broken the fuel has a
storage life of six months at 20°C or three months at 30°C.

Petrol in equipment tanks.

The storage life of petrol in equipment fuel tanks is one month. This can be extended by topping up with one third of
fresh fuel, which restores the volatile components that have evaporated.
Topping up with fresh fuel will help, however it is not a foolproof strategy for engines that are used only intermittently.

The following principles may also help:

> Keep the tank half full to stop water vapour from being sucked in and condensing.
> Consider using a fuel that contains anti-oxidants, metal deactivators and corrosion inhibitors to protect metal surfaces;
such as BP Ultimate.
> Use a hotter spark plug to help to reduce carbon deposits

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/country-sites/en_au/australia/home/products-services/fuels/opal-factsheet-storagehandling.pdf

[mkennard]

I tried looking for the regs on transporting fuel, like jerry cans in a car and couldn't find them. Can someone send the links for NSW please.

[old man emu]

5 hours ago, walrus said:

run the engine bone dry with the fuel off

Back in my youth, our lawn mower did not have any physical method for stopping the engine other than the earthing tag over the spark plug. If you have been "bitten" by ignition current you soon look for another way. My parents taught me to turn off the fuel and let the engine run out of it. Nowadays there is no tap in the fuel line, so we use the throttle adjustment which somehow does the job. Is it that modern small motor carbies don't have fuel bowls?

 

44 minutes ago, mkennard said:

Can someone send the links for NSW please.

All the regulations seem to be aimed a dealing with large volumes of fuel.  Those for the small amounts we deal with (up to 200 litre drums) are hard to find. I got this from an article for caravaners 

Any containers you need must be loaded, secured, segregated, transported and unloaded safely. Containers must be fit for the purpose of transporting dangerous goods and not be altered or damaged. You can only carry a total of 250L of fuel in jerry cans and 50L of LPG or two 9kg gas cylinders.

 

This site outlines the Regs for each State https://www.rveethereyet.com/it-is-illegal-to-carry-fuel-on-the-back-of-my-van/ It seems that 250 litres is the standard. It would seem that one drum of fuel would be the limit in a hangar, but a bulk store would be OK if it was outside and protected from the Elements.

[facthunter]

Fuels are subject to attack by Microbes. Avtur has a powerful and dangerous additive in it for that reason. Diesel can suffer also and other fuels. You'd have to sterilise the container to stop it. 2 stroke mixed is generally preferred to be done only when it's going to be used  soon.  Nev

[kgwilson]

Yes 2 stroke should not be kept for long. Usually the 2 stroke oil has a green or blue dye in it. When mixed this will turn brown over time. When this happens the engine is likely to run hot & if it gets too hot the lubricating properties disappear and the engine may be damaged or sieze. This happened to one of our SES chainsaws over Covid when nothing was used. The next training session after 12 moths or more ended up with the saw not able to be restarted after that session. The Stihl shop found a hole in the piston, scored bore and ruined big end bearing. It was a throwaway. Replaced with a battery saw, problem solved.

[old man emu]

Sort of related to this topic.

For the Air Rally, I was going to make arrangements to help pilots get Mogas if they needed it. Someone suggested that if I do, I should have a Mister Funnel on hand. If I do help pilots get Mogas, it will be coming from a servo whose underground tanks are only about 6 months old. I get my car fuel from this place and haven't had any water or muck problems since the new tanks went in.

 

However, in the interests of safety, I'd like to know if contaminated fuel from decently run servos ever shows up contaminants that a Mister Funnel would filter out.

[kgwilson]

I have my own Mister funnel & take it with me when I go XC. Anyone who is concerned should do the same.

[facthunter]

I think the answer is YES .It's possible to need a  filter. Years ago I think it was Ampol who introduced a Final Filter visible on every pump. How effective this was I do not know but I do know of Cars and other vehicles suffering from fuel contamination effects. I only trusted Sealed DRUMS. Nev

[old man emu]

What about current experience?

[Blueadventures]

28 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Sort of related to this topic.

For the Air Rally, I was going to make arrangements to help pilots get Mogas if they needed it. Someone suggested that if I do, I should have a Mister Funnel on hand. If I do help pilots get Mogas, it will be coming from a servo whose underground tanks are only about 6 months old. I get my car fuel from this place and haven't had any water or muck problems since the new tanks went in.

 

However, in the interests of safety, I'd like to know if contaminated fuel from decently run servos ever shows up contaminants that a Mister Funnel would filter out.

That was me, a mr funnel just adds another step to cleaner fuel going into aircraft fuel tanks from portable jerry type cans.  I have always carried one and use it when away.  In my hangar I have a mr funnel available to anyone that wants to use it.  Was just an idea for consideration. Cheers.

[facthunter]

I service a few cars and my kids and grand kids have cars and other work vehicles and we currently still have fuels system debris/ contamination  issues. Nev

[old man emu]

OK. These filters range in price from $55 to $290. Is there any extra performance benefit in the ones dearer than the $55 one? With the funnel extension the lowest priced one is $75.

 

I might just buy one as personal property, but take it along on the day.

[Blueadventures]

This is the Mr Funnel size I have on the wall in my hangar.  You may get a similar product from local mower small machinery shop that does mowers, chain saws, wiper snippets etc. I got a small yellow one at home for mower etc.

[skippydiesel]

43 minutes ago, old man emu said:

OK. These filters range in price from $55 to $290. Is there any extra performance benefit in the ones dearer than the $55 one? With the funnel extension the lowest priced one is $75.

 

I might just buy one as personal property, but take it along on the day.

You can make a pretty good facsimily of a Mr Funnel by using the filter fabric, that filling stations use.

 

Make a paper template, dimensions dictated by your funnel. Cut fabric slightly oversize to accommodate a seam and folding over funnel lip.  Fold fabric line to be sown, so as to maintain filter effectiveness. Place cone in funnel so that point & sides do not contact funnel. Use long cable/zip tie, safety wire  or fuel resistant "elastic" band (even tire inner tube ring) to hold fabric in position. Works very well - mine is about 8 years old now and still giving evidence of fuel contamination.

 

I have two Mr Funnels but am not a fan of their design. They are a great idea. Unfortunate. grossly overpriced and the design is poor. They should have slightly conical & fluted  bottomed/base. This conical shape would ensure a secure  fit into a range of diffrent sized filler points  and the fluting would allow displaced air to readily escape.

Edited April 7, 2023 by skippydiesel

[pmccarthy]

I agree they topple over easily and always retain enough fuel to cause a spill after you are closing up.

[Blueadventures]

9 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

I agree they topple over easily and always retain enough fuel to cause a spill after you are closing up.

I've never had an issue in over 12 years.  My two are a medium diameter of about 200mm.  I have seen people with the larger size and these may be too bigger a diameter and volume to be practical.  Cheers

[old man emu]

According to an Australian review of funnel, the filter is also designed to save the last 100ml or so of fuel in the bottom of the funnel. That'd be where you get the spill. Also a small problem is a small bit of fuel leaking between the funnel and the hose

 

 

 

This demo look kosher

 

[kgwilson]

I've had mine since 2015. Never had a problem. Sits perfectly in all 3 tank filler openings. The sump has a purpose, that is why it is there. It is the recepticle for any dirt or water. It is a F8 model about 210mm in diameter with a flow rate of 19 L/min & is black which contains injected carbon to conduct static electricity. Cost about $35.00 when I bought it on Ebay in 2015.

 

I was a bit sceptical so I put 100 ml of water in 5 litres of fuel & shook it up & put the fuel through the Mr Funnel into another container & got the 100 ml of water back.

 

After refuelling I use what is left in the sump to kill the weeds by the hangar door.

 

So far I have never seen any contaminants left after refuelling, though it is possible that there have been because after a few fills I stopped looking.

Edited April 7, 2023 by kgwilson

[old man emu]

7 hours ago, kgwilson said:

I use what is left in the sump to kill the weeds by the hangar door.

 

Tut! Tut! That's environmental rape. 

[kgwilson]

Nowhere near as bad as pumping tonnes of poisonous lead into the atmosphere from Avgas and I don't have to use herbicide to kill the weeds or spend time I don't have to spare pulling them out.

[skippydiesel]

I have no doubt the Mr Funnel works to remove water and other contaminates from fuel - terrific! BUT the design is awful, as is the cost (about $50-$140 depending on size).

 

Sure it works for some, who by good fortune have nice level filler points, the the base of the funnel fits really snugly into but even they will find that using the funnel on other tanks/drums results in an unstable funnel that must be held (by a second person?)

 

If the funnel tends to seal the fill point the flow of fuel is slowed and fuel can blow back as displaced air escapes.

 

There is no Mr Funnel that can effectively work on a side filling point.

 

The first two  points can be addressed by having a conical fluted base that will fit securely in almost all fill points and allow displaced air to esacpe..

 

The last point would require a significant redesign but could be done (there are funnels on the market that facilitate a side fill situation)

[kgwilson]

I'd say the market is pretty small so there is not enough demand for a side filling option. They also don't seem to have any competitors so that is reflected in the price. If somebody else made a teflon coated 50 micron gauze filter that worked the same, there'd be some competition & the price would drop. If there was a big enough market the Chinese would have been pumping them out before now. They do make a flexible extension hose for the F3 & F8 models available from Bunnings for an extra $13.50. I am surprised at how they have more than doubled in price in 8 years though.

[facthunter]

Many things have doubled in price  especially if you consider quality in the last 8 years or so.  Nev