Light plane crash Hillcrest QLD 6.4.23

[facthunter]

That's reflecting indicated speeds and  then approach and TTS. (Target threshold speed).. Nev

[Chris SS]

It would be interesting to note the position of the mixture levers.

[flying dog]

Not pointing fingers, and as much as mistakes happen:

 

Seriously?  Running out of fuel?

 

If it was 30 years ago I would believe it more.

 

But nowadays people use these whizz bang apps and stuff to do their flights.

Fuel is in there and for a direct flight with no diversions.....   That seems odd.

 

Had the plane needed to divert because of "things" - again: maybe.

 

But it is an n hour flight with fixed reserves.   Plane drinks y liters of fuel / hour.

It isn't rocket science.

The "app" should have shown the fuel needed.

 

Yes, it is good the pilot wasn't killed and there wasn't an explosion at the crash site.

 

Me thinks there is more to this story.

[Thruster88]

There is always the possibility of a fuel leak. Cap left off in the dark, leaking drain, cracked fuel line etc.

 

 Forced landing due to leaking fuel drain

 

In a twin such a problem would be isolated to one side, left fuel tanks feed left engine unless cross feed is selected.  

[flying dog]

8 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

There is always the possibility of a fuel leak. Cap left off in the dark, leaking drain, cracked fuel line etc.

 

And this is true.

 

But (sorry, playing "Devil's advocate")

 

Fuel checks en-route should have detected this.

Shouldn't they?
 

I get it: mistakes are made.

 

We need to learn from it and be glad things weren't worse.

 

 

 

[Garfly]

Public speculation about possible pilot error is not not pointing fingers.

[flying dog]

Maybe not, but it is PUBLIC and not based on facts.

 

I want to be clear I am not trying to assign blame.

 

But the "picture" as painted is still too vague to know the real story of what happened to start guessing the cause.

[Garfly]

15 minutes ago, flying dog said:

Maybe not, but it is PUBLIC and not based on facts.

 

I want to be clear I am not trying to assign blame.

 

But the "picture" as painted is still too vague to know the real story of what happened to start guessing the cause.

 

Fair enough. 

 

(Over on pprune, though, they're pretty hairy-chested with their speculatin'   ;-  )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Garfly

[flying dog]

Maybe not, but it is PUBLIC and not based on facts.

 

I want to be clear I am not trying to assign blame.

 

But the "picture" as painted is still too vague to know the real story of what happened to start guessing the cause.

[flying dog]

Shame that it got to that.

 

I know no one is perfect, but gee it is not nice when pilots - who are supposed to be just a bit better than most others at blame assignation - are doing that.

 

[kgwilson]

Well what if it's true?

[planedriver]

No better time for others to learn from it.

[flying dog]

The big thing there is the word IF.

 

How about we wait for truths to be revealed?

 

Yes, it would be better if we can learn from it but first we have to know if that is/was the cause.

 

[Garfly]

Actually, there's little incentive not to speculate on a fellow pilot's 'error'.  Notwithstanding our precept about innocent till proven guilty.

Some will argue that there's a public benefit in doing so (rarely argued by an involved party).

Truth is, most aeronautical types can take a guess as to the probable cause as soon as they hear the basic facts about an incident.

After all, we haven't found too many new ways to crash planes in the past century.

(Old Dan Gryder certainly does, even if sometimes he's forced to eat humble pie due his high profile.)

 

So if you've no scruples about pointing fingers you will very likely be (partly) right.

And anyway, by the time a properly responsible investigation is done, your premature gaff will likely be forgotten.

(Except, probably, by aggrieved innocents - and unless they decide to sue  ;- )

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Garfly

[facthunter]

The impression you get from Prune is Hell, are these weirdos up the front of the things I fly in?? Might have changed I only look now and again.  Nev

[RFguy]

My J230 fuel drains leaked...  (changed O rings- and dont forget the header tank drain O ring) . Not fast enough to make a difference but eventually they would have.

@Thruster88- what's the service requirement on a GA plane like a Cherokee for fuell drain components- inspection or mandatory time limit ????

[Thruster88]

CASA schedule 5, the most common system of maintenance for light general aviation says something like, inspect the fuel lines, vents and drains of the fuel system. The drains do not have a life that I am aware of.

[facthunter]

You check them every time you use them., Before the first flight and after any fuel added  Nev

[kgwilson]

I only have one, a curtis type & I have had to replace the O-ring once so far after it started leaking about 1 drip every couple of minutes. I doesn't sound like much but that is 720 drips a day & 5040 drips a week. The stain on the floor & the smell as soon as I opened the door gave it away immediately.. The good thing is that to drain the tank you just have to push it up & twist it to lock & then let the fuel empty in to a container. 

[facthunter]

On many planes a proper fuel drain has many drain points. One for each tank and maybe others at low points. Nev

[Carbon Canary]

On the later C172s there are 13 fuel drain points.

Textron got a bit carried away, possibly after a law suit.

[onetrack]

The PA-31-350 Chieftain is a stretched version of the PA-31 Navajo, and shares a similar level of control layout and familiarity to the Navajo. Fuel starvation due to improper fuel tank selection or fuel tank management features highly in many Piper crashes, and both the Navajo and Chieftain also feature large in fuel starvation crashes, caused by this same problem. To put it succinctly, 90% of crashes are pilot error, and 90% of fuel starvation crashes are also pilot error.

 

Both these aircraft feature 4 tanks - inner and outer, a set in each wing. Fuel tank selector valves are accessed by reaching down with your right hand, so unless you're right on the ball, and carrying and following a written checklist, it would be easy to become distracted, and forget to do correct fuel tank selection, as this pilot did.

 

Note the ATSB comment ....

 

"On average, the ATSB received around 21 reports of fuel exhaustion or starvation occurrences each year. Research conducted by the ATSB indicates that fuel mismanagement was three times more likely to involve fuel starvation than exhaustion, and was more likely to occur in private and charter operations."

 

https://www.baaa-acro.com/sites/default/files/2021-09/VH-OFF.pdf

[Garfly]

 

All very true.  But it's good to keep in mind that with our worst PA-31 crash (Whyalla Flt. 904) blame was finally laid at the door of Lycoming.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyalla_Airlines_Flight_904

 

"The safety implications arising from the accident were subject to a recall by engine manufacturer Textron Lycoming 

which saw close to 1000 aircraft grounded worldwide while defects were rectified at an estimated cost of $A66 million."

 

[aro]

12 hours ago, flying dog said:

But nowadays people use these whizz bang apps and stuff to do their flights.

...

The "app" should have shown the fuel needed.

I doubt it was an issue for this particular flight because it has more effect on slower aircraft, but:

Do not trust fuel calculations from the EFB apps unless you understand exactly how they select the winds for the calculation.

 

I know one of the commonly used apps in Australia makes a poor wind selection for fuel calculations. It only occurs in specific weather patterns, but you can fly from A to B back to A and it will give you a tailwind in both directions. I have finished a flight with significantly less fuel than expected, and it was due to this tail wind both directions scenario.

[kgwilson]

There was a Navajo crash near Hamilton Airport in NZ back in the 90s. It ran out of fuel and killed the young pilot. The investigation found full tip tanks and the selector switched to an empty inner tank