talking of alternatives for Rotax 912, what about starter motors and stators?

[danny_galaga]

Does anyone happen to know what other machines the starter and alternator appear on? I forgot to have a close look at the starter while I had the engine out, but I'm pretty confident it's a Denso. That makes sense since they also use a Denso solenoid (it does not necessarily follow, but as a manufacturer, if you've decided a companies starter motor is of high enough quality for you, then their solenoids should be too so why not stick to one supplier). Likewise, there seems to be a good chance the alternator is a Denso too. If not, following my logic, since the reg/rec is Ducati (which is probably Magnetti Marelli) then maybe so too is the alternator. That makes me sad, because if it's Magnetti Marelli, they kinda blow 😄

 

I have been having a bit of a look around while I compose this, and so far I have found these which are specifically for the 912:

 

 

https://ecclestonaviation.co.uk/product/889751-electric-starter-set/?v=79cba1185463  (Rotax OEM 500 squids, plus freight)

 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/skytecRX12.php    (improved aftermarket. 700-900 USD, plus freight. )

 

 

So going with my hunch, I started looking at pics of Denso motorcycle starters. Those superfluous lugs are a clue they normally bolt to a crankcase) I hit on the BMW F650 starter. It will need further investigation, my friend has a BMW F650. I can have a squizz, but not sure if I will have enough access.  It certainly makes sense, since the F650 is also a Rotax engine. Single cylinder, so it would need ROUGHLY the same amount of force to spin as the 912. As well, someone else here pointed out that the F650 radiator cap is the same. What this is adding up to is that Rotax, naturally enough utilise what they are already getting for other engines they make. Of course the F650 has been around a while, so there may be a few iterations of the engine, which could include the starter. So even if it is the F650, we need to determine what years it used the same starter (if of course it is the same)

 

The below link is for an AFTERMARKET F650 starter. Before anyone jumps the gun, I'm showing this link because it has quite a few pics from different angles. It is my preference to buy the same genuine part that Rotax buys, but paying the automotive price. I probably wouldn't get a cheap aftermarket starter.

 

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=524427#prettyPhoto

 

 

 

Too see exactly the same starter, it's useful to look for genuine second hand ones on ebay:

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=bmw+f650+starter&_sacat=0&LH_PrefLoc=2&Brand=BMW&rt=nc&Brand%20Type=Genuine%20OEM&_dcat=177959

 

 

 

Particularly this listing

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/394431030976?hash=item5bd5ebe6c0:g:jbIAAOSwnQFjzr7C&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4BBbngib0YSE%2B6CMmjsCmTpUvXc9UZlt%2FfgQCtHur%2FN9tqAkwgwYcHrHWpcLICJlLUbPp3XbvdKtGA8KIW8R6raYzZcfQYI0gQP49M%2BQY7usc%2BqH%2BZgmY0sZwBeQTl%2BNZc0ab28Ev9pQvqeWGiUBDs7neO3lXe04bVr5ghxLIJleIFF8myKupAhmW1pZ09HT0OJTyX8IxFAibhoV%2BbPQavFTrJVmbVjI%2FPEtKbpSloRToz3CqwbwFicn6kkY7jWDj8A7psox9wg3rixECg3cM6Dl8EyZMoU3uWE%2BNtcoEv0E|tkp%3ABk9SR9K2rIXtYQ

 

Of note, they clearly show the Denso part number ( 428000-5630 . Also 294 359 ) which is useful, should this turn out to be the correct starter. Again, gun jumpers, please I'm not intending to fit a second hand one unless I knew where it had been (only from a known 912 engine, not from a motorbike thats probably been submerged in rivers a number of times in its life 😄 ) If I'm reading the listing correctly, it's for models from 2006-2012. Italian listing, so not sure how well they translated it. They could mean only 2006 and only 2012, but that seems unlikely.

 

 

 

 

Note that the Aircraft Spruce link also has some handy drawings with dimensions.

 

Note that I'm attaching the pics from that ebay listing for posterity since ebay listings disappear after a while.

 

The last pic (the clean, silvery one!) is of the genuine starter, for comparison from Ecclestones site. I am specifically only looking at the late model starter, as I believe the Black starter wasn't as powerful and should be upgraded anyway.

 

NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE!!!!

 

I'm NOT saying this is definitely the same starter, but it's looking plausible. Something as simple as the wrong number of teeth on the armature could blow this out of the water (This starter has 9 teeth).

 

Does anyone know anything else?

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by danny_galaga

[danny_galaga]

Phew!

 

That was a lot of work, not even going TRY to look for the stator or rotor. You guys can do some research there 😄

 

[facthunter]

I think it's impossible to know what (little) differences exist, while things may appear to be the same. How's it going to affect your Certified aircraft or LSA status?   Nev

[danny_galaga]

I should say, this is obviously for us Experimental, or 19 rego guys. I've had luck with the solenoid so far. Kyle seems to have found what fuel pump Rotax source.

 

There's only so many things to measure on the starter, if I can get my hands on one. I might try and find a U/S one from the wreckers cheap to measure up. It's unlikely they are modifying the starters to suit their engine, but I concede it's a possibility. Most likely thing would be to machine the face plate for some reason. Still unlikely because they would have to pull apart the starter to machine it, and all that extra labour to potentially make it slightly weaker than it was before. Better to design the starter mount around an existing design. Same with the fuel pump- why reinvent the wheel? And I'm guessing it will be the same for the stator, and maybe rotor.

Edited April 10, 2023 by danny_galaga

[facthunter]

In the olden days parts used to fit a range of brands but that just doesn't happen these days.. Nev

[onetrack]

Danny, did you find this forum thread? The Suzuki VX800 starter is identical to the Rotax, apart from the terminal end housing. Google Translate will give you the English translation.

 

https://www.ulforum.de/ultraleicht/forum/2_technik-und-flugzeuge/2466_anlasser-rotax-912-uls/seite-1.html

[onetrack]

The German Silent Hektik parts supplier appears to have arranged a Japanese supplier to provide an aftermarket alternative to the OEM starter. No price mentioned, you apparently have to send in an order to get a quote.

The forum discussion goes on with Silent Hektik mentioning a "net" (no VAT) price of 197 Euros in 2013. Then the discussion deteriorates into an argument about whether the price quoted should be "net", as few European users have the ability to acquire parts VAT-free.

The bottom line is, that I find that purchasing parts from Europe is an expensive exercise, even if the parts are made in a cheaper manufacturing nation, such as Taiwan. If they sell European-manufactured parts, there's no price advantage whatsoever.

 

http://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_912_Anlasser.htm

 

Silent Hektik also produce a modified (and reportedly improved) voltage regulator for the Rotax. Their site contains a lot of useful electrical information.

 

http://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_R_912.htm

[Area-51]

They may look the same... you need to strip both units down and measure armature resistance across the windings and compare sizing of copper wire used, and then compare the size of the carbon brushes. The cases may be identical but a heavier rated unit will use heavier gauge copper and deeper brushes.

 

Or just request load operating specs of each unit from Denso if available.

 

Some manufacturers use shallower or softer brushes; so the life of the starter can be reduced some 50% at times; or the brushes just burn out from excessive cycle times.

 

9 out of 10 starter failure is related to armature brushes only.

 

If a solenoid is used then its generally the copper plate in the solenoid burnt out; poor copper quality is the cause here; not the same as 50 years ago...

 

Replace both solenoid and starter as a unit; not worth saving the $ as the non replaced unit will fail when you are most needing it.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Area-51

[danny_galaga]

The German site is informative, but I'm thinking I've nailed it with the F650. When you have similar machines or within a range people making starter motors don't make different specs for every single machine out there. Classic example is the Bosch car starter, from about 1960 to 1990. The same starter was used on Holden's and Ford's, Ramblers and Triumphs. Only the front housing was different. The carcass was the same.

 

I'm confident that Suzuki starter, f650 and Rotax 912 have the same carcass. And I strongly suspect the Rotax 912 IS the f650. 

[onetrack]

Another motorbike parts supplier (based in Sydney) that may prove useful, is Vectriq. They're an independent supplier with a current listing of over 500 motorcycle parts. They list 14 starter motors on their site, but I didn't see one for the Suzuki VX800. However, if asked, they could possibly source them.

 

https://www.vectriqparts.com.au/

[danny_galaga]

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

Another motorbike parts supplier (based in Sydney) that may prove useful, is Vectriq. They're an independent supplier with a current listing of over 500 motorcycle parts. They list 14 starter motors on their site, but I didn't see one for the Suzuki VX800. However, if asked, they could possibly source them.

 

https://www.vectriqparts.com.au/

I have dealt with them before. Great service. They stock the aftermarket regulator/rectifier for the 912 that I bought 🙂

https://www.vectriqparts.com.au/product/rotax-voltage-regulator-carr5115/

 

I am becoming somewhat confident the starter is the same as the F650, so not too worried about the VX800 unless that is more easily had and at a great price since it sounds like you would have to swap housings. Doesn't look like vectriq does either. And while the aftermarket regulators are an improvement on the originals, I'm not so sure of the quality of aftermarket starters. That's a much harder thing to emulate well than electronics. If you are ok with aftermarket, then the guys I linked to earlier would be a source (provided I am right about the F650 being the same starter)

 

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=524427#prettyPhoto

Edited April 10, 2023 by danny_galaga

[danny_galaga]

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

The German Silent Hektik parts supplier appears to have arranged a Japanese supplier to provide an aftermarket alternative to the OEM starter. No price mentioned, you apparently have to send in an order to get a quote.

The forum discussion goes on with Silent Hektik mentioning a "net" (no VAT) price of 197 Euros in 2013. Then the discussion deteriorates into an argument about whether the price quoted should be "net", as few European users have the ability to acquire parts VAT-free.

The bottom line is, that I find that purchasing parts from Europe is an expensive exercise, even if the parts are made in a cheaper manufacturing nation, such as Taiwan. If they sell European-manufactured parts, there's no price advantage whatsoever.

 

http://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_912_Anlasser.htm

 

Silent Hektik also produce a modified (and reportedly improved) voltage regulator for the Rotax. Their site contains a lot of useful electrical information.

 

http://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_R_912.htm

 

They have quite clearly sourced the correct genuine Denso starter 🙂   I have shot them an email to ask about price and availability. Sometimes, like with my fuel pump guys, the info stays online years after the business has gone under. Let's see if they reply.

[onetrack]

I saw on another forum where Silent Hektik were no longer shipping parts to the U.K. Perhaps as a result of Brexit making it too hard. On that basis, I would expect they wouldn't be interested in shipping to Australia.

Shipping from Japan to Germany, and then back to Australia, makes no sense anyway, it's better to find a local supplier.

[Marty_d]

Correct me if I'm mistaken,  but guessing that a starter motor would be a relatively safe part to go aftermarket.  

Mostly it's used on the ground,  so if it doesn't work it's not life threatening. 

(If you're desperately trying to restart in the air it's another matter of course,  but what would be the odds of your starter motor failing at exactly the same time as whatever stopped your engine?)

[danny_galaga]

Good point, except that a badly made starter can get just as explodey as one that has the solenoid stuck on, which we decided in another thread might not be good for your engine. Although now I think about it, no shrapnel from this design of starter can get into the engine if it disintegrates. Maybe aftermarket would be ok to try, so long as you don't mind a dead short for a few seconds while the armature windings hit the magnets 🤔

 

Onetrack, Australia is not the UK so I doubt brexit would matter to a German supplier sending to us. a lot of the stuff vectriq are selling is made in Holland for instance. However I might try and contact an Australian BMW parts outfit about the F650 starter. See what they would charge.

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by danny_galaga

[facthunter]

BMW Chattanooga is where I got the cheapest  genuine BMW parts but watch the mailing costs (UPS).   nev

[turboplanner]

Denso used to be called Nippon (Japan) Denso and the Japanese quality was high. Still might pay to run some searches in Japan to see if there's a parts match and where the part is now made.

 

[danny_galaga]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Denso used to be called Nippon (Japan) Denso and the Japanese quality was high. Still might pay to run some searches in Japan to see if there's a parts match and where the part is now made.

 

Yes I still think of them as Nippon Denso. The Denso solenoid is made in Japan. Wherever the Denso starter is made that Rotax uses will be good enough for me 😁

 

So if it is an F650 starter, wherever Denso gets it made is obviously speccy enough. Although I think most of their motorbike starters are still made in Japan.

[facthunter]

I'm serious about that Chattanooga site. No one else ever got near them. My wife had a twinspark 650 single which is what you're talking about.  I did all the work on it. Nev

Edited April 11, 2023 by facthunter

[danny_galaga]

26 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I'm serious about that Chattanooga site. No one else ever got near them. My wife had a twinspark 650 single which is what you're talking about.  I did all the work on it. Nev

Do you have a link?

[facthunter]

I think you'll pull it up on Google.  They're a big show. We got rid of the Beemer. (scarver). B#%$*d to work on.  Based on some DAKAR bike

[facthunter]

 Opens right up on BMW TN Chattanooga.. Nev

[danny_galaga]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

 Opens right up on BMW TN Chattanooga.. Nev

Yes that's the first link I found. That seems to be a car dealer. Doesn't matter, I'm sure there'll be something closer to home. The only problem now I guess is if the last model to use that starter was 2012 (not saying it is, but if it was) then NOS of starters is going to be thin on the ground. Motorbike starters wouldn't be a big seller to begin with. I know myself if it was my bike and it was out of warranty, I'd hit the wreckers first before going new.

 

And then we are back to the aftermarket one. I'm sorry I opened that Chattanooga Choo Choo link now, it's screwing with my edit function...

 

Let's see if I hear back from that German outfit.

Edited April 11, 2023 by danny_galaga

[danny_galaga]

"Guten Tag

The F1205 is sold out.

warm regards"

 

Oh well.

 

 

[John Nooyen]

If you need to overhaul the starter, try

 

Please check that the parts look the same as yours, before ordering.

 

This Yamaha kit fit mine....

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/301891831897?hash=item464a27c859:g:S54AAOSwEClj6jKo&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8KRhwH1wzZ3%2BQjpnsBiWrKrDiy6iRK65mdHLc3yPyCMYdoZVrRAXBxyV8sq94O9QUPSUbf5QKUYNoQewTt9DMzClC%2FbZsRj2L7U%2Blu8s1MseutQA7DI%2FmL3OyvlIHhSetsCY5YqalgBt7%2FWYO%2BkAhdfaFXXr5nOO6%2BtREUxD%2Bm3KgNqSGKmt6OFCa1h6d1ITf4BxKMfC05MU66aG5%2FQaxUm8v0N3ppocoeCNCCI8%2F6OcHGYwxmgIF4rCj4SGu%2FHWSQFhmU665r4XX2xPmjPk0t32WuaTwmJKfwy246h%2BrzAaSkVS3A6OBV2pE14eU4a74A%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR9jvypzuYQ