Bankstown Airport - Is it all Doom and Gloom?

[Ben]

Hello all! 

 

Long time lurker, first time poster so please be kind 😃 

 

Disclaimer: I am a uni student and have aspirations to become a pilot, so I'm still a noob. 

 

Anyway, I've been reading some posts here and from AOPA that Bankstown airport is in decline and I understand that there are some challenges it is facing such as commercial development, short term leases and increasing rents and the general apprehension due to potential impacts from Western Sydney Airport. 

 

I totally understand that those are pain points. But what if we look at the positive side of things, such as:

- Healthy movement numbers. Comparable to Parafield, Jandakot etc. 

- Strong demand - It's always super busy with 5-7 in a circuit 

- 10 Flight schools based here (strength in numbers!)

- Strategically located in the heart of Sydney (unlike WSI which is basically in the sticks)

- WSI is not a GA airport, so won't take away GA demand from Bankstown

 

With that, it seems unlikely that things will change around here. It has been this way for a long time and I believe it will stay this way for many years to come! 

 

I'm just trying to stay positive here, though I am prepared to be grilled...😅

 

 

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

In 2011 Bankstown had a total of 243,126 movements.

 

I wouldn't take any notice of the bleating, because these people are generall looking for something that was like THEIR past, when in fact the industry has been adapting year by year to where profits can be made.

 

For example, The Moorabbin Airport movements are available year by year for decades, and you can see where the declines were and how the low points were followed by booms, and a current year total of movements that looks very healthy and contradicts the doom spreaders.

 

If you pull the Moorabbin figures first you see their annual movement history as a bench mark. I couldn't find the matching data for Bankstown in the short time I searched, but you may be able to find it. You can also pull figures for Archerfield, Parafiueld and Jandakot for a bigger Capital City trend.

 

Once you have those figures it's a matter of matching how you want to fly with the flying taking place to produce the current aircraft movements.

Current for Moorabbin Airport 295,000 movements per year (800 per day).  Van Nuys, California movements per year are currently 300,000.

[johnm]

good work on your first post Ben

 

I don't even know what bankstown looks like ! - but I think commercial pressure for capital and rent seems to exceed what flight schools can generate in income ...................... they move to where things are a bit cheaper ?

[old man emu]

An "aircraft movement" for statistical purposes is either a takeoff or a landing. They don't reflect the number of individual aircraft using an aerodrome. So, a student pilot doing circuits and bumps will create six takeoffs and landings in an hour. That's 12 movements by one plane in one hour. So to say that movements have not changed is not a reflection on the vibrancy of an aerodrome,

 

This is what Bankstown looked like about 10 years ago: 

 

The red areas on this view are the non-aviation areas of the airport today: 

 

Since the Government leased to aerodrome to Big Business, the North/South runway has been eliminated. The general parking area to the top right is now non-aviation industrial units, and the area to teh west of it is currently being prepared for the building of more of the same. Landing fees and parking fees make the place unattractive to private owners.

 

Because of the hike in rents to "commercial equivalent" aviation support businesses such as Hawker-Pacific spares and engine shop as well as Aviall spares have left. One of the two propeller repair businesses has closed. As soons as a business's lease needs to be renewed, the rents demanded skyrocket. If business  which built its premises before the Commonwealth handed over the head lease of the aerodrome to Big Business closes down, the owner of building can't sell it to a new business. The building becomes the property of the head leaseholder with no compensation. There goes the superannuation of the self-employed blokes who built those facilities out of their own pockets.

 

Nancy Bird Walton Airport will impact on the associated training area associated with Bankstown. Apart from the NBW Airport control zone limits, massive residential development to the south of it will severely limit airspace for training due to safety reasons, as well as the cries from the newly-arrived NIMBYs in those 21st Century slums.

 

Don't forget that Big Business also has the lease of Camden and the land where Hoxton Park used to be (now a big warehousing site)

 

Public Transport: Fly into Bankstown to attend to business or pleasure in Sydney, and you'll need a taxi or Uber to go any further as there is no public transport. It is 15 minutes by road to the nearest railway station.

 

I'm afraid, Ben, that your optimism is unfounded. Bankstown Airport will become a site fit only for commercial aviation. Maybe Big Business will see that Camden should be developed to promote General Aviation in the training and private sectors, but being located on a floodplain that got swamped last year, it is not likely. It is ironic that the leaders of Big Business, who rely so much on air travel can't see the need to provide for the training needs of the next generation of commercially licensed pilots.

[Carbon Canary]

With training at Bankstown listed at $443/hr + $25 landing fee for ab initio training in a 47 year old warrior, one would think the demographic that can afford this is severely limited…….or the Bank of M&D has deep pockets.

 

https://global-uploads.webflow.com/636a17b81f72224488d65b95/636d7aa692fb7b9a19721eb3_SFC Aircraft Rates-September 2022.pdf
 

That said, this particular school has invested heavily in a new fleet of Archer TX aircraft (with a hire rate of $520/hr) so I admire their optimism.  
 

As OME indicated, once the new WSI / NBW airport airspace comes into play, Bankstown aircraft will most likely be forced further south for training.  This will only add to the expense of training.

 

Interestingly, Warnervale flying school on the Central Coast is booming (using 45 year old C150s) at $355/hr incl landing fee.

 

I personally feel very fortunate that when I began my flying training it cost $35/hour and no landing fee - but that was still bloody expensive !!

[planedriver]

Great post OME,

You stole most of what I was in the process of writing.

Sadly from an aviators point of view, Bankstown Airport  is constantly shrinking at an alarming rate to commercial and industrilal development. The green area's are getting smaller and smaller and replaced with what seems like an ever growing amount of building sites.  In the southwest corner of the airfield where I used to enjoy Schofields Flying Club plus others, there is now a warehouse so massive it needs to be seen to be believed. I looks almost big enough to put a runway on it's roof.

The aviation museum has gone, and many others.

As you rightly point out, so many have suffered as a result of the airport being leased out. The sad case of Clamback & Hennesy to mention just one, who had built up their business over decades, only to have many years of hard work and investment virtually stolen away from them, due to conditions imposed by the new leaseholder and no compensation. 

Unfortunately, it seems that those with a vested financial interest in the almighty dollar, always seem to come out as the winners.

[old man emu]

Australian Aviation Museum - officially opened by Paul Keating  - closed and dispersed because a volunteer organization could not afford the rent. Australian Aip Props - owner retired, building resumed. Clamback & Hennessy - exorbitant rent + retirement - building pulled down.

 

Massive warehouse for TOLL Transport. Another massive building for the NSW Police Airwing. The rents are so high that even CASA moved its offices to a high rise beside Central Railway Station in the Sydney CBD. At least there's a Bunnings, Maccas, Hungry Jacks KFC and Aldi, and if you want mogas there's a BP servo. 

[old man emu]

And it's not only Bankstown that is undergoing change.  Just got asked to circulate this:

 

From: AAC <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2023 at 10:49
Subject: Closure of RWY 04L/22R at Archerfield Airport
To:

 

Dear Archerfield Airport Community Members,

 

We are writing to inform you about the upcoming closure of Runway 04L/22R at Archerfield Airport. The closure is scheduled to take place between 18 April and 1 August and from 14 September to 27 September. This closure is required to accommodate the crane operations for the development of future airport infrastructure.  The cranes used in the construction work infringe the Obstacle Limitation Surfaces (OLS) and will be equipped with flashing red obstacle lighting during daylight hours. Furthermore, the cranes will be lowered during hours of darkness and under low visibility conditions to ensure the safety of aircraft and helicopter operations. We understand that this closure may cause some inconvenience to your operations, and we apologise for any inconvenience caused. However, we would like to assure you that every effort will be made to minimize the impact of this closure on your operations including the runway will be open on the weekends and when the crane is not required for any reason.

 

Please note that two NOTAMs will be issued relating to the obstacle crane's level of infringement and the closure of Runway 04L/22R due to the crane operations. We advise you to plan your operations accordingly and to check for the latest NOTAMs related to the closure.

 

If you have any questions or concerns regarding this closure, please do not hesitate to contact us. We appreciate your understanding and cooperation during this time.

 

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

Best regards,

AAC Team

 

[Ben]

12 hours ago, johnm said:

good work on your first post Ben

 

I don't even know what bankstown looks like ! - but I think commercial pressure for capital and rent seems to exceed what flight schools can generate in income ...................... they move to where things are a bit cheaper ?

Thanks! Though that may be true, but we must not allow that since flight schools can only operate at airports whereas developers can developer wherever they want.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Ben

[facthunter]

I don't think any of us like this happening. It's the trend everywhere. GREED. Making land at Airports available to their financial backers.    Nev

[Ben]

10 hours ago, old man emu said:

An "aircraft movement" for statistical purposes is either a takeoff or a landing. They don't reflect the number of individual aircraft using an aerodrome. So, a student pilot doing circuits and bumps will create six takeoffs and landings in an hour. That's 12 movements by one plane in one hour. So to say that movements have not changed is not a reflection on the vibrancy of an aerodrome,

 

This is what Bankstown looked like about 10 years ago: 

 

The red areas on this view are the non-aviation areas of the airport today: 

 

Since the Government leased to aerodrome to Big Business, the North/South runway has been eliminated. The general parking area to the top right is now non-aviation industrial units, and the area to teh west of it is currently being prepared for the building of more of the same. Landing fees and parking fees make the place unattractive to private owners.

 

Because of the hike in rents to "commercial equivalent" aviation support businesses such as Hawker-Pacific spares and engine shop as well as Aviall spares have left. One of the two propeller repair businesses has closed. As soons as a business's lease needs to be renewed, the rents demanded skyrocket. If business  which built its premises before the Commonwealth handed over the head lease of the aerodrome to Big Business closes down, the owner of building can't sell it to a new business. The building becomes the property of the head leaseholder with no compensation. There goes the superannuation of the self-employed blokes who built those facilities out of their own pockets.

 

Nancy Bird Walton Airport will impact on the associated training area associated with Bankstown. Apart from the NBW Airport control zone limits, massive residential development to the south of it will severely limit airspace for training due to safety reasons, as well as the cries from the newly-arrived NIMBYs in those 21st Century slums.

 

Don't forget that Big Business also has the lease of Camden and the land where Hoxton Park used to be (now a big warehousing site)

 

Public Transport: Fly into Bankstown to attend to business or pleasure in Sydney, and you'll need a taxi or Uber to go any further as there is no public transport. It is 15 minutes by road to the nearest railway station.

 

I'm afraid, Ben, that your optimism is unfounded. Bankstown Airport will become a site fit only for commercial aviation. Maybe Big Business will see that Camden should be developed to promote General Aviation in the training and private sectors, but being located on a floodplain that got swamped last year, it is not likely. It is ironic that the leaders of Big Business, who rely so much on air travel can't see the need to provide for the training needs of the next generation of commercially licensed pilots.

Wow I don't know what to say. You've really opened my eyes OME. I did not know a touch and go counted as 2 movements... Looks like you've brought me back down to earth. Regarding Camden being on a flood plain, I thought Bankstown is also located on one, though I don't think it got flooded even with the crazy rain from last year. Henry Lawson Drive/Tower road intersection had sections submerged. 

 

Also genuine noob question - When WSI becomes operational, you mentioned the training could potentially be further south, what proportion of training will that comprise of versus say touch and go where the flying occurs around the airport? How much of an impact will that have on a flight schools overall operation? 

 

 

[Ben]

10 hours ago, Carbon Canary said:

With training at Bankstown listed at $443/hr + $25 landing fee for ab initio training in a 47 year old warrior, one would think the demographic that can afford this is severely limited…….or the Bank of M&D has deep pockets.

 

https://global-uploads.webflow.com/636a17b81f72224488d65b95/636d7aa692fb7b9a19721eb3_SFC Aircraft Rates-September 2022.pdf
 

That said, this particular school has invested heavily in a new fleet of Archer TX aircraft (with a hire rate of $520/hr) so I admire their optimism.  
 

As OME indicated, once the new WSI / NBW airport airspace comes into play, Bankstown aircraft will most likely be forced further south for training.  This will only add to the expense of training.

 

Interestingly, Warnervale flying school on the Central Coast is booming (using 45 year old C150s) at $355/hr incl landing fee.

 

I personally feel very fortunate that when I began my flying training it cost $35/hour and no landing fee - but that was still bloody expensive !!

wow $35/hour including hire, fuel and trainer? That's insane! Though I could say the same about house prices 🥲

[old man emu]

Let's say that ab initio training takes 40 hours before you get a grade of licence that lets you take passengers into the training area. Of course the number of hours varies due to many factors, mainly surrounding money and time available to put into training. Of that 40 hours, I'd guess 20 would be used doing straight forward circuits and bumps, including first solo and first few solo hours. You could add 5 hours for crosswind instruction and practice. That leaves 15 hours for upper air work, forced landing, steep turns.

 

It seems that a few of the Bankstown schools are popping over to Camden for circuit work, and maybe they do some upper air work. I don't know the exact boundaries of the Camden Training Area, but this mud map shows what I think would be suitable boundaries for one centred on Camden which avoids conflicts with NBW Airport. The area I have shown includes The Oaks Airport which is also a training centre.

[old man emu]

17 minutes ago, Ben said:

$35/hour including hire,

When I started, I got 2 hours for that amount.

[pmccarthy]

Yep, $11.50 per hour in a Victa 100.

[Carbon Canary]

2 hours ago, Ben said:

wow $35/hour including hire, fuel and trainer? That's insane! Though I could say the same about house prices 🥲

At least the Cessna 150 was only a few years old back then ! 😜

[old man emu]

21 minutes ago, Carbon Canary said:

At least the Cessna 150 was only a few years old back then ! 😜

Still had the plastic on the door trims.

[turboplanner]

11 hours ago, Ben said:

Wow I don't know what to say. You've really opened my eyes OME. I did not know a touch and go counted as 2 movements... Looks like you've brought me back down to earth. Regarding Camden being on a flood plain, I thought Bankstown is also located on one, though I don't think it got flooded even with the crazy rain from last year. Henry Lawson Drive/Tower road intersection had sections submerged. 

 

Also genuine noob question - When WSI becomes operational, you mentioned the training could potentially be further south, what proportion of training will that comprise of versus say touch and go where the flying occurs around the airport? How much of an impact will that have on a flight schools overall operation? 

 

 

Phone Bankstown and ask them if a  touch and go is one movement or two; then you'll  know.

Statistical recording hasn't changed for decades so get the annual movement details for Bankstown and you'll KNOW whether flying is declining.

OME switched his argument to the number of aircraft fying, but that doesn't apply at the major airports. They all got their critical mass by aircraft HIRE, so aircraft movements in 1960 have the same status as aircraft movements today.

This site primarily caters for RA where the goal is to own your own aircraft, so it's not surprising that most people here will be thinking about the cost of owning your own aircraft.

GA doesn't work like that; if you want to fly economically someone else has to be paying part of the cost.

The last thing you'd be looking at is buying an aircraft unless you had unlimited money to spend.

In GA if you want affordable flying you hire.

The aircraft owners have fleets of aircraft hired by multiple pilots.

They have their own workshops and employ their own LAMES, so they don't pay full retail walk up prices for service.

They buy their aircraft at a discount, work it several hours PER DAY, have the engine warm all day, get the cleanest fuel.

It's a version of the WalMart principle where a five dollar product has a 2 cent net profit, but given the number of WalMart stores, adds 1 million dollars to the WalMart bottom line each year.

I just had a quick look at Moorabbin sites and the first one I looked at was offering a PPL package in a Diamond DA40 for $17,310.00 consisting of 30 hours flying, 1 hour Sim, 20 hours briefing and Theory. For that cost you can start to look at holidays like El Questro, the Whitsundays, Yellow Waters taking three passengers and work your way into Constant Speed prop and retractable undercarriage and high cruise speeds and twins.

That's $332 per week, giving you time to get your theory up to speed with your flying, and getting a years worth of different weather under your belt.

How did you buy your first car? Did you look at the cost and then say "Gee I could have bought a Morris Minor for ten pounds; the car industry is ripping me off, and they don't have steel bumpers any more; that's it I'm not going to drive!"?

Edited April 19, 2023 by turboplanner

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

it's not surprising that most people here will be thinking about the cost of owning your own aircraft.

It's not the capital cost of an aircraft, maintenance/operating costs and insurance that differ between basing an aircraft at these Secondary airports or somewhere else. The costs explode on Secondary airports through landing fees, parking fees/hangarage fees, which are all determined by Chief Financial Officers whose sole purpose in life is to inflate the bottom line. 

 

It's a crock that if I use an aircraft to go to Sydney to see family for a few days and land at Bankstown or Camden, I have to pay a daily fee to leave the aircraft there. What am I going to do with it so I don't incur a parking fee? Perhaps I should get one of those Goodyear inflatable planes and pack it up in a suitcase when I land. And what do you get in return for that fee? Sweet F. A. No tie down cable. No temporary hangarage. And definitely no security surveillance. 

 

These airport landlords even make it hard for maintenance organizations. If they have to stand an aircraft aside, say whilst waiting for a part to arrive, and the aircraft is outside for a day or two, along comes the  airport parking patrol and slips them a bill for parking.

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, old man emu said:

It's not the capital cost of an aircraft, maintenance/operating costs and insurance that differ between basing an aircraft at these Secondary airports or somewhere else. The costs explode on Secondary airports through landing fees, parking fees/hangarage fees, which are all determined by Chief Financial Officers whose sole purpose in life is to inflate the bottom line. 

 

It's a crock that if I use an aircraft to go to Sydney to see family for a few days and land at Bankstown or Camden, I have to pay a daily fee to leave the aircraft there. What am I going to do with it so I don't incur a parking fee? Perhaps I should get one of those Goodyear inflatable planes and pack it up in a suitcase when I land. And what do you get in return for that fee? Sweet F. A. No tie down cable. No temporary hangarage. And definitely no security surveillance. 

 

These airport landlords even make it hard for maintenance organizations. If they have to stand an aircraft aside, say whilst waiting for a part to arrive, and the aircraft is outside for a day or two, along comes the  airport parking patrol and slips them a bill for parking.

A long time ago, maybe 20 years ago, we stopped doing intercity flights because it was a fraction of the cost, and for many, faster to jump on a budget RPT.  The extension of that is catch a commmercial flight to anywhere in the world, drive to the Light Aircraft field and fly where you want to fly with a local instructor in the right seat doing the planning and radio.

[pmccarthy]

I know an equal number of RA and GA aircraft owners. Their motivations for ownership are the same. Having owned both for periods of years, the ownership costs were similar. There is a trend toward RA aircraft ownership at present because:

• CASA medical limitations
• Old GA aircraft just got much more expensive (last two years)
• People with money want a modern machine with modern instruments
• Fuel prices have risen
• You can sell your GA plane for big $$ and buy RA (but someone must have bought the GA plane)
• We found out the kids/grandkids don't want to fly with us anyway
• There are very few friendly accessible GA training schools remaining

 

[kgwilson]

When I decided to build an aircraft back in 2010 I tossed up between experimental GA & RA. RA won on simplicity, self declaration of medicals, overall  and on-going cost. I have now let my Class 2 medical lapse & technically can no longer fly in to or land at controlled airports. I still do with the approval of the controller. I used to fly 1970s Piper Archers & Cessnas. I now fly my own bulid 2015 modern aircraft that is cheaper to operate, has better performance but only has 2 seats. The number of times all 4 seats of the Archer were filled way back when I can count on my hands.

 

Getting back to Bankstown, it seems to me most new pilots, even those with an Aviation career in mind start with a RA pilot certificate so the amount of ab initio training in GA is noweher near what it used to be.

[old man emu]

6 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Getting back to Bankstown, it seems to me most new pilots, even those with an Aviation career in mind start with a RA pilot certificate so the amount of ab initio training in GA is noweher near what it used to be.

GA or RA doesn't affect the movement statistic, which simply record wheels on the runway. I wonder, too, how they gather the statistics for helicopter operations. At Bankstown it seems to me that there are more copters operating in training than fixed wing.

 

Interesting word "helicopter".  From a Latinized combining form of Greek helix (genitive helikos) "spiral"  or "helix" + pteron "wing" 

[facthunter]

They are generally categorised "Rotary Wing " in Australia. Crazy Palm trees in New Guinea. Nev

[Hwansey]

To all the long faces at Bankstown, get thee to Bathurst, join the aero club, and enjoy a very nice 172 for $280.00 per hour!