Bankstown Airport - Is it all Doom and Gloom?

[old man emu]

That 172 better be at Tooraweenah on the 20th May. Info has been sent to your club

[facthunter]

You don't even have to cross the Mountains.  Nev

[Ben]

Look at these Big businesses, even bragging about their milestones. 

 

https://www.watoday.com.au/business/companies/samsung-signs-lease-at-super-fund-s-big-western-sydney-industrial-estate-20230508-p5d6ly.html

 

What I really don't understand is, how can non-aviation big businesses have access to long term leases, whereas aviation businesses cannot, even when it is based on an airport?! 

 

What will the big businesses do when they eventually drive out the flight schools and lose that revenue stream? They'll be left with 3 dead runways.  

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, Ben said:

Look at these Big businesses, even bragging about their milestones. 

 

https://www.watoday.com.au/business/companies/samsung-signs-lease-at-super-fund-s-big-western-sydney-industrial-estate-20230508-p5d6ly.html

 

What I really don't understand is, how can non-aviation big businesses have access to long term leases, whereas aviation businesses cannot, even when it is based on an airport?! 

 

What will the big businesses do when they eventually drive out the flight schools and lose that revenue stream? They'll be left with 3 dead runways.  

There is one Airport lessee with a 99 year lease from the Commonwealth Government.

The Lessee is entitled to sublet in the way it can make a profit.

Bankstown Airport Movements in 2017 were 248,000 (the latest figure is in a previous post) so the aviation industry is producing numbers that aren't all that short of the peaks.  The key point is that metropolitan aviation is not conducted the same way as it was in the 1960s and 1970s; those people left for cheaper airfields, so not a lot of point worrying about these airfields when every movement is bringing in money.

The lessees are primarily placing clients on land which was not being used. 

[old man emu]

12 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Bankstown Airport Movements in 2017 were 248,000 (the latest figure is in a previous post)

That is a useless statistic, a minimum of five years out of date. 

 

12 hours ago, turboplanner said:

the aviation industry is producing numbers that aren't all that short of the peaks. 

No. The airport lessee is using false numbers to hide the fact that it has basically destroyed Bankstown as a General Aviation terminus. 

12 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The Lessee is entitled to sublet in the way it can make a profit.

It was also supposed to maintain the aerodrome as a General Aviation facility. It does that by mowing the grass around the runway.

 

12 hours ago, turboplanner said:

those people left for cheaper airfields,

Because the lessee made it uneconomical even to use the aerodrome when flying into Sydney to conduct business or for personal reasons and park your aircraft for a day or two. 

 

Cheaper airfields?????? Just about as soon as they got the leases for the three Sydney Basin aerodromes  - Bankstown, Camden and Hoxton Park - they closed Hoxton Park and turned it into a warehousing centre. Now Sydney is left with no publicly owned aerodromes. Aviation-related businesses on Bankstown and Camden are being squeezed into bankruptcy or premature closure by the lessee's constant imposition of higher rents, expensive electricity supply and outdoor parking fees.

 

I hope I'm wrong, Turbo, but sometimes I think from your posts that you are closely involved with those corporations that hold these almost perpetual leases.

[Carbon Canary]

The (draft) single runway flight paths for WSI airport should be known next month. This may also provide a preliminary idea for the airspace design surrounding the airport.

This will be of critical importance to GA operators at Bankstown.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

That is a useless statistic, a minimum of five years out of date. 

This is a social media site so our posts are not expected to be a thesis; the figure I found quickly and quoted showed a very healthy rate of activity/buusiness. Thhis thread was fot a student and you'll notice if you go back that I recommended to the student to find all the annual movements for his work.

 

However, your concern is that my figure was out of date so here are some more figures for Bankstown movements per Financial Year

2018  260,916

2019  277, 242

2020 229,928

2021 100, 634 (Covid)

2022 190,978

2023 170,400 to March. 170,400/3*4 = 227,210 for the full year if the current usage continues.

In the middle of that is Covid and the Covid recovery.

While movements include individual circuits, (not how many aircraft there are at Bankstown), every circuit is earning money for someone.

 

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

 

No. The airport lessee is using false numbers to hide the fact that it has basically destroyed Bankstown as a General Aviation terminus. 

It was also supposed to maintain the aerodrome as a General Aviation facility. It does that by mowing the grass around the runway.

The numbers I quoted don't come from the lessee, they are routine data collated by Airservices Australia from all over Australia, so not interest in how well or otherwise Bankstown is doing.

 

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

Because the lessee made it uneconomical even to use the aerodrome when flying into Sydney to conduct business or for personal reasons and park your aircraft for a day or two. 

The world benchmark for a private aircraft field is Van Nuys in Los Angeles with 300,000 movements per year. 

If Bankstown gets its 75% of that by June 30 this year it's right up there by world standards.

We were always told that one day we would be riding in Aircraft as if they were buses, even maybe standing up in some cases, and that day came, commercial aviation exploded to the point where Tullamarine now has two big multi story car parks and a long term car park 1.4 km long and the public expects to fly from Melbourne to Cairns for $169, leave Melbourne at 6 a.m. and arrive Cairns 9.20 a.m. for a business meeting. Even in something like a C210, you can't justify the figures to senion management, even if there are business stops along the way, so it's no surprise that aviation at the major city airports has changed in its nature away from the little businesses, to bigger operations like air charter and fast executive aircraft. Business changes; I used to design Refrigerated cash vans which delivered food products all over each state in fleets of 50-100 vehicles. Today most of the milk Bars are gone and the same products are delivered 24 hours a day to big supermarkets in semi trailers. You have to adapt because one someone finds a more economical way of doing business, the customers go with that.

 

 

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, old man emu said:

Cheaper airfields?????? Just about as soon as they got the leases for the three Sydney Basin aerodromes  - Bankstown, Camden and Hoxton Park - they closed Hoxton Park and turned it into a warehousing centre. Now Sydney is left with no publicly owned aerodromes. 

In your own case where previously you mentioned the loss of two of your customers it's a marketing challenge researching to see where those activities now take place. Two of my favourite aircraft, a Victa V115 and Cherokee Warrier went to country ownership, albeit someone managed in the Warrior, the most gentle and predictable aircraft I've ever flown, which could be spot landed just about every time,  to slam it into the end fence on a cross strip turning it into a total write-off. This flow from the city would be one stream of potential customers, and the other stream would be the companies which have moved into cheaper industrial estates or city fringes. If you find your market has very much spread out, then the other shift, to electronic marketing would solve that, so you could sell from where you are today.  I used to have a favourite local tractor parts supplier in Melbourne, but as the market gardens and fringe farms were swallowed up by development these suppliers closed down. Now I buy all my tractor parts from an online business which appears from photos to be a farm shed somewhere in Central Queensland, good prices, quick supply, looks for rare parts; good luck to him for going for the business. I but Chevrolet parts from a business in Florida; makes a nice change from "No mate the industry's stuffed now that PBR are out of business."

3 hours ago, old man emu said:

I hope I'm wrong, Turbo, but sometimes I think from your posts that you are closely involved with those corporations that hold these almost perpetual leases.

I thought I was supposed to be working for CASA, but I guess you can add Big Business, Henry Ford etc. You can see the full Turbine list on Never Ending Story. 

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

you find your market has very much spread out,

I don't sell. I provide a service to tenants that provides information required under their lease agreements. Therefore, when a tenant leaves, and either can't sell the same business on the same site, or the site is not occupied by a certain type of activity, I lose a client.  What is happening is that businesses related to aircraft maintenance are closing and their buildings are being turned over to warehousing.  The operators of warehouses have different lease requirements in my area of service, so they don't need me. Not that I'm whinging because what I did simply gave me cream on the cake. I wasn't supporting myself or family from that work. 

 

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

I thought I was supposed to be working for CASA

Directly? Because it explains why when you are serious, you bring home the bacon. Onya!

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

I don't sell. I provide a service to tenants that provides information required under their lease agreements.

OK that makes a difference, I thought you were selling bolts etc.

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

 

Directly? Because it explains why when you are serious, you bring home the bacon. Onya!

No, have never worked for them, just spend hours trying to find information that should be on a two-sided card.

[Student Pilot]

You just have to talk to people trying to make a living at Bankstown.........no good reports.

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, Student Pilot said:

You just have to talk to people trying to make a living at Bankstown.........no good reports.

How come the 170,400 movements so far this year then?

That's pretty much on world standard.

This breakdown of movements for the last 3 months of this financial year shows where the use is coming from.

 

[old man emu]

Basically most of those movements are indeed training flights, but Australian and foreign students doing commercial licence courses in both fixed and rotary wing. Very few people who just want to learn to fly for recreation or self transport. The Royal Aero Club died yonks ago. Chieftain , Illawarra, Navair, Schofields Aero Club - all gone. Hoxton Park Aero Club - gone. Camden Aero Club - gone. Phoenix Aero Club moved to Camden and seem to have a youthful membership.

 

Trying to talk to the functionaries of the lessee in an attempt to work together for mutual benefit is a failure since they don't reply. In my area of work, they change functionaries about every 6 months so that it seems to be a new broom that can't get into the corners.

 

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I thought you were selling bolts etc.

Not since 2013, but I've still got my reference book. The damned thing is 35 Mb and hard to email to people who would like it (free of course).

[turboplanner]

11 hours ago, old man emu said:

Basically most of those movements are indeed training flights, but Australian and foreign students doing commercial licence courses in both fixed and rotary wing. Very few people who just want to learn to fly for recreation or self transport. The Royal Aero Club died yonks ago. Chieftain , Illawarra, Navair, Schofields Aero Club - all gone. Hoxton Park Aero Club - gone. Camden Aero Club - gone. Phoenix Aero Club moved to Camden and seem to have a youthful membership.

People don't hang around metropolitan hotels or clubs any more since the .05 car licence regulations came in and I notice in the local Hotels if you go in for a counter lunch there are about 10% of the crowd you would see in the 1970's and '80's.

 

The metropolitan trend has certainly been moving away from aircraft ownership because there is less leisure time  and, as an example, it's way cheaper to travel to Perth Jetstar then hire a modern light aircraft for a sight seeing trip around the west.

 

People don't buy Commodores or Falcons anymore; the No 1 selling car currently is the Toyota Hilux, so families are spending more to two caravans, boats, trade trailers and horse floats.

 

If you're in business you have to adapt to change to survive.

 

The movement volumes at the airports I posted statistics for are still right up there, which means some operators at those airports are more successful at adapting than others.

 

11 hours ago, old man emu said:

Trying to talk to the functionaries of the lessee in an attempt to work together for mutual benefit is a failure since they don't reply. In my area of work, they change functionaries about every 6 months so that it seems to be a new broom that can't get into the corners.

The lessee can't realy tell his sub-letters how to go about their business; it's really up to them to find a model which attracts customers.

 

11 hours ago, old man emu said:

 

Not since 2013, but I've still got my reference book. The damned thing is 35 Mb and hard to email to people who would like it (free of course).

If you get a gmail account you get a free cloud package. You then load that 35 Mb document to Google Drive, give permission for the recipient to access that filename, and send it as an attachment to an email.

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The lessee can't realy tell his sub-letters how to go about their business; it's really up to them to find a model which attracts customers.

 

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Trying to talk to the functionaries of the lessee in an attempt to work together for mutual benefit is a failure

 

 

I didn't put what I said very well. My business is auditing tenants' environmental risk management systems. These are required ultimately due to the Airports (Environment Protection) Act. The holder of the head lease has created three tiers of risk level

Tier 1: Possible major environmental risk incident e.g. Fuel Depot

Tier 2: Possible medium environmental risk incident e.g. Aircraft maintenance, Fast Food

Tier 3: Possible minor environmental risk incident e.g. warehouse, business office, hangarage only.

 

I have one client who has been classed Tier 2, but on my assessment of his level of risk, should be a Tier 3. This would mean that he could submit his own annual reports without my having to come in and charge him for an independent report every three years. After the last audit, I wrote the the head leaseholder suggesting that change. I'm still waiting for even an acknowledgement of my letter. 

 

The reason I got into doing this is that when the head leaseholder took over they suggested a certain company to do the audits for them. I've seen a quote from one of these companies and back in the middle teens the quote was for over $5000. At the time I was working in the industry and knew how tight money was. So I got qualified (paid for by the first few who needed the audit done) and thereafter charged them a fixed fee of well less than $1000. In that way, they comply with their lease requirements for not too much, and I get some cream on the cake. The audits are only required every three years. Last was in the 21/22 financial year. I'm wondering if there will be any still on Bankstown for the 24/25 series.

[Ben]

Many thanks for everyone who has contributed their insights! I really appreciate the diverse knowledge and experience you all share!

 

What I gather from everyones responses:

- Many Aviation related business have shut/moved out or continue to struggle

- Movement numbers are strong and steady 

- Majority of movements appear to be flight training (CPL) followed by rotary rather than recreational

 

This does raise another question - Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of how these flight schools are coping? Data suggests they are doing fine as the demand is there based on the movement numbers. Their hourly rates also appear to reflect that as per Carbon Canary's and others pricing observation. 

 

Sadly that isn't great news for people like myself with the cost of training being so high and appears to only up. However, university degrees are also expensive so it's an investment that has to be made one way or another. 

[turboplanner]

22 minutes ago, old man emu said:

 

 

 

I didn't put what I said very well. My business is auditing tenants' environmental risk management systems. These are required ultimately due to the Airports (Environment Protection) Act. The holder of the head lease has created three tiers of risk level

Tier 1: Possible major environmental risk incident e.g. Fuel Depot

Tier 2: Possible medium environmental risk incident e.g. Aircraft maintenance, Fast Food

Tier 3: Possible minor environmental risk incident e.g. warehouse, business office, hangarage only.

 

I have one client who has been classed Tier 2, but on my assessment of his level of risk, should be a Tier 3. This would mean that he could submit his own annual reports without my having to come in and charge him for an independent report every three years. After the last audit, I wrote the the head leaseholder suggesting that change. I'm still waiting for even an acknowledgement of my letter. 

 

The reason I got into doing this is that when the head leaseholder took over they suggested a certain company to do the audits for them. I've seen a quote from one of these companies and back in the middle teens the quote was for over $5000. At the time I was working in the industry and knew how tight money was. So I got qualified (paid for by the first few who needed the audit done) and thereafter charged them a fixed fee of well less than $1000. In that way, they comply with their lease requirements for not too much, and I get some cream on the cake. The audits are only required every three years. Last was in the 21/22 financial year. I'm wondering if there will be any still on Bankstown for the 24/25 series.

I can see why you're focused on the number of operators. Maybe you could do it for the retailing businesses  and bigger schools/charter operators also?

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Maybe you could do it for the retailing businesses  and bigger schools/charter operators also

They are classed as Tier 3 and self-report. They don't need an independent auditor. What is happening is that the companies I service are aircraft maintenance providers and they are being squeezed hard by increases in rents and overheads introduced by the head lease holder. It is pretty obvious. If you want to get compliance with the Airports (Environment Protection) Act, get rid of the sources of possible risk to the environment. A massive warehouse does not pose the environmental risks that a small hangar does with its 500 litres of waste oil awaiting collection for recycling, because a warehousing does not produce waste that is an environmental risk.

 

I am switching my line of attack to take in the documenting and auditing of CASA Manuals of Standards relating to maintenance. 

[Ben]

Just wanted to share some fantastic news. 

 

Bankstown Airport really smashed it in May, recording 23,000 movements! Making it the 2nd most busy airport in the country for that month!

[Carbon Canary]

The draft EIS for WSI is now out, and as expected, it ain't good news for GA operators at Bankstown.

In particular, getting to and across the mountains from Bankstown will probably require a VFR clearance. 

Camden will effectively lose its two northerly inbound reporting points, but is less affected than Bankstown, and may actually gain a number of businesses relocating from Bankstown.

Coincidentally, the largest school at Bankstown has just announced the opening of a new campus at Tamworth.

[old man emu]

35 minutes ago, Carbon Canary said:

Coincidentally, the largest school at Bankstown has just announced the opening of a new campus at Tamworth.

That's convenient for the bloke who lives in the Sydney Metropolitan Area and has organised his finances to pay for a lesson per week.

 

And where are these businesses going to erect premises at Camden? Any space between the present hangars and the river is flood-prone. The glider hangars are just dirt-floor sheds. You can't build on the slope above the hangar area because the ground is full of asbestos. There's not a lot of room beside Rwy 24 past Phoenix Aero Club.

 

And those premises won't be simple steel-framed sheds sheeted with Colorbond. The building standards required by the leaseholder, Aeria, require adherence to today's commercial building codes. 

[Carbon Canary]

Fair points.

I vaguely recall the previous lease holder having ambitious plans to develop the paddock on the 'hill' behind the control tower, with a new access road, etc, but of course none of that has airside access.  I don't have any knowledge of contaminated ground, but given the extensive buildings that were there during the war years, the presence of asbestos is almost guaranteed. 

Your right - current available hangar space is effectively nil and constructing new hangar space would be very problematic. I totally agree that businesses at Bankstown looking to relocate are royally screwed, and have few options.

Cessnock have just finished the addition of a bunch of new hangars, and I believe all are already full.  Warnervale's new hangars on the western side of the strip are still at the DA stage as far as I know.

[Student Pilot]

On 10/5/2023 at 10:50 AM, Ben said:

Look at these Big businesses, even bragging about their milestones. 

 

https://www.watoday.com.au/business/companies/samsung-signs-lease-at-super-fund-s-big-western-sydney-industrial-estate-20230508-p5d6ly.html

 

What I really don't understand is, how can non-aviation big businesses have access to long term leases, whereas aviation businesses cannot, even when it is based on an airport?! 

 

What will the big businesses do when they eventually drive out the flight schools and lose that revenue stream? They'll be left with 3 dead runways.  

There will be more ground to lease when the runways are closed. Bankstown has already ceased to be a general aviation airfield. There might be "movements" but that doesn't equate to a vibrant facility available to the public. It's only a matter of time, between greedy developers and an incompetent tone deaf regulator, GA is on a downward spiral. No matter how some try to justify the greedy antics and developer destruction of an airfield it is happening and it will destroy Bankstown as a GA airfield. Manipulation of statistics aside.

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, Student Pilot said:

There will be more ground to lease when the runways are closed. Bankstown has already ceased to be a general aviation airfield. There might be "movements" but that doesn't equate to a vibrant facility available to the public. It's only a matter of time, between greedy developers and an incompetent tone deaf regulator, GA is on a downward spiral. No matter how some try to justify the greedy antics and developer destruction of an airfield it is happening and it will destroy Bankstown as a GA airfield. Manipulation of statistics aside.

People should contact the management of an airfield if they have any concerns.

Movements aren't rabbits on the airfield or forlorn old farts walking up and down the footpaths; they are aircraft movements, just the same as there were aircraft movements on the day the airport opened last century.

 

Ben, only a few posts ago told us Bankstown May movements were 23,000 making it the second busiest airport in the country that month.

The movement units count is on the same basis all over Australia and Airservices published movement records from a lot of airports.

 

It's just that Companies are doing business in different ways that produce profits these days.

 

Someone might have been the best milkman in the district 50 years ago, but everyone gets their milk from the supermarket today.

 

 

 

[red750]

Pardon my for sidetracking for a moment, but I had a thoroughly disappointing day today. Our Men's Shed was closed as some members, including a co-ordinator, have Covid, so I thought I would enjoy a glorious sunny day and go to Lilydale airport, a place I haven't been in about 5 years.

 

There were a number of aircraft tied down in various states of neglect. On the flightline, there were three PA-28s, and three ex-Soar Aviation yellow Foxbats. A red and white Pitts Special, which I think had been performing aeros overhead, landed and taxied past the flying school. One of the PA-28's and one of the Foxbats started up, and after a short while, taxied to the holding point. They held there for a short while, waiting while another Foxbat came in, floated about halfway down the runway before landing. I didn't wait to see the others take off. So in the half hour or so I was there, four movements.

 

Then I drove to Coldstream, which was even more depressing. Only one PA-28 parked outside the clubrooms, and a partly disassembled Pier Aztec way down the back next to a hangar. Not a thing was moving.

 

Granted, it is Friday, and things may liven up tomorrow, but I thought there may have been a little more action.